Devolution
Member
Okay here's my dilemma, if what you think he did IS wrong, then why should the onus be on her to tell him to stop?
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IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
- Thread starter benny_a
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Okay here's my dilemma, if what you think he did IS wrong, then why should the onus be on her to tell him to stop?
FrontierWhiskey
Member
Here's an idea:
Let it go. It's not what I've done over the past few hours, but maybe it's the best idea.
One dudes life is totally in upheaval - deserved or not, it sucks.
One gal's life is likewise in disarray due to all the attention, and she - as far as we know - didn't ask for this to be a public issue.
In the end, one person acted kinda shitty to another one and that's the long and short of it.
Best case scenario? They figure out this shit and end up friends. All this hand wringing about sexual harassment and how one should stand up against it and making sure that we know exactly what is right and what is indefensible?
Eh. It's just a bad day for a couple of people we don't know. Maybe it'll make a difference, maybe not.
Just be fucking cool and admit when you suck. Shit does happen, after all.
Let it go. It's not what I've done over the past few hours, but maybe it's the best idea.
One dudes life is totally in upheaval - deserved or not, it sucks.
One gal's life is likewise in disarray due to all the attention, and she - as far as we know - didn't ask for this to be a public issue.
In the end, one person acted kinda shitty to another one and that's the long and short of it.
Best case scenario? They figure out this shit and end up friends. All this hand wringing about sexual harassment and how one should stand up against it and making sure that we know exactly what is right and what is indefensible?
Eh. It's just a bad day for a couple of people we don't know. Maybe it'll make a difference, maybe not.
Just be fucking cool and admit when you suck. Shit does happen, after all.
Fattony12000
Member
I'm slow motion leaping towards Jaffe to try and catch him as he's flinging himself from the edge of an exploding volcano. I'm trying, trying so hard to stretch and reach him but he's just falling away from me too fast. Faster and faster. Further and further. Even in this thick bullet time there's just too much space for me to cover to try and save him. My fingers brush his jacket.
I miss.
My hand catches naught but air and Jaffe tumbles down in a world of muted, grey-blue tinted molasses-moving fire.
My body lands upon the ground with a rattling, reverberating thump. I'm positioned such that I can still see Jaffe falling away from me. Into the gaping maw of the volcano.
Even at this distance, I see a single tear streak from his eye.
I scream.
I miss.
My hand catches naught but air and Jaffe tumbles down in a world of muted, grey-blue tinted molasses-moving fire.
My body lands upon the ground with a rattling, reverberating thump. I'm positioned such that I can still see Jaffe falling away from me. Into the gaping maw of the volcano.
Even at this distance, I see a single tear streak from his eye.
I scream.
runnin_blue
Banned
This place makes me laugh so hard.
Can we all just agree:
1 - Mattingly is a sad douche
2 - She should have walked away from the conversation
3 - Jaffe you're drunk. If not, start drinking coz it's gonna be a looooong night.
Can we all just agree:
1 - Mattingly is a sad douche
2 - She should have walked away from the conversation
3 - Jaffe you're drunk. If not, start drinking coz it's gonna be a looooong night.
Might have, could have, maybe. That's the problem with this whole thing. We don't know if the guy has been talking like this to her for longer than this 1 chat, maybe she was responding to it positively in the past, maybe not. We don't know and the right action for her was to report his behaviour to the appropiate party, not letting her friend spread it on Twitter.
Unless her intention was to open the discussion about sexual harassment in the videogame industry. That's a good discussion, but people going over and over a case they know jack shit about makes no sense.
Mental Atrophy
Banned
It isn't. But a lot of trouble might've been saved if she did.
Devolution
Member
How are you so sure of this fact?
Oh I wasn't offended! I love your games and am a fan. I never argue with devo myself as I have a 100% fail rate.
Mental Atrophy
Banned
I'm not. That's why I said "might've."
thequickandthedead
Member
I wish my job had as much free time as yours Jaffe 
Yeah, they should speak out, they need to speak out. The problem is that sometimes a proper support circle is not in place and that leads to the sidestepping thing you mentioned. And ironically the sidestepping and twitter stuff might be perceived to some as she not being offended at this, so she stops being the perfect victim in the eyes of a misguided few, and in this case, another fellow developer.
So you have a problem with the public shaming or not? I asked a few pages back why and never got the answer. Again, if she had quickly stopped that after the first comment im sure that someone out there could have assumed she was just being a bitch in that fb convo. She is never gonna be the perfect victim to someone and thats why the "should/shouldnt" is at best pedantry and at worst victim blaming.
dragonbane
Member
What the fuck am I reading. And she even tries to ignore it. That dude is disgusting.
Devolution
Member
And that's more valid than me saying this whole thing could have been averted if he acted professionally or taken the hint? And that if we're all appalled by this behavior the onus really shouldn't be on the victim to tell him what he's doing in that moment is wrong?
theSlacker
Member
I was having the same feeling till he came and started posting and I realized he could handle himself.
runnin_blue
Banned
I'm kind of disturbed that everyone's directing their hate at Jaffe now and not Mr Casanova (Mattingly).
Rocket Scientist
Member
My only problem is that it was public shaming. If she wanted to address the matter, it could have been done without revealing his identity. I think it would have been more constructive than the continued circle jerk of laughing at these types of cases online.
SillyEskimo
Member
Apology accepted!
Mental Atrophy
Banned
You're reading way too much into what I said. The best possible solution is for him not to be such a douche. I'm just saying she also has power to affect her circumstances, even if it's not her responsibility to do so.
Because apparently we have no idea what empathy is anymore. People need to specifically tell us what is acceptable and what isn't; similar to how we would all be raging lunatics if not for religion to tell us how to live our lives.
What if they're the same person?
The best part is where she even gave him an out: "are you tipsy?" lol
voodoopanda
Member
What matters is what happened, not hypothetical what-ifs.
Jaffe says what the guy did was clearly and completely gross. The guy himself should've known what he was doing was clearly gross. He did it anyway. He is at fault. How the woman who was exposed to his grossness reacted, all the what-ifs or maybes of how things could've gone down, doesn't matter. It's not at all her fault this dude did something he should've known was clearly gross, and which everyone here agrees is gross, to her.
Saying this isn't harassment because even though it is clearly gross and wrong(?) because she did not react in the perfect way in the moment is wrong.
Jaffe says what the guy did was clearly and completely gross. The guy himself should've known what he was doing was clearly gross. He did it anyway. He is at fault. How the woman who was exposed to his grossness reacted, all the what-ifs or maybes of how things could've gone down, doesn't matter. It's not at all her fault this dude did something he should've known was clearly gross, and which everyone here agrees is gross, to her.
Saying this isn't harassment because even though it is clearly gross and wrong(?) because she did not react in the perfect way in the moment is wrong.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Because:
a- she has every right to and it would have made anyone feel better to put this guy in his place.
b- I think it's very fair to read the conversation and see how he COULD have gotten the idea that while she was not into his advances, she was not bothered by them and thus he was going to keep trying. I don't like how the net has immediately labeled this guy as wrong in every sense of the word WITHOUT seeing that very real possibility (the possibility being that he-or anyone else- could have read the situation poorly). And so NOW if she is complaining (which I don't even know if she is, fyi) I think it's fair to say to her 'hey, check how you communicated with this tool- perhaps next time- if this did bother you- there are some things you could do differently' and I think it's fair to say that to her without it meaning I'm 'blaming the victim'.
c- AKA- it's not always black and white, as much as it feels good and easy and righteous to say 'ZERO TOLERANCE! IT IS ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SORT OF THING'.
David
ps. are we becoming friends?!?! Oh my god! I am so happy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? Beyond the fabricated "internet pitchfork" argument please tell me why this is wrong.
That he was being unprofessional is assumed by everyone here. It's not even an unstated assumption, everyone states it all the time. That doesn't mean she only had one option the entire evening.
As she wasn't physically in the same space as him she could have not replied and then what could that guy possibly do via Facebook? The most power he would have in this case is being an annoying blinking icon.
The same way you can stop anyone currently hacking your shit and stopping any copying process: You shut it off.
Disclaimer: He was the aggressor, but acting like she had to respond to every single thing he wrote over the course of several hours is ridiculous. I already wrote about the non-confrontational out she had 37 minutes later.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Cool story bro. Way to fix nothing. Your continued insinuation that I am a sexist is pathetic.
Why do you care what the net has labeled him? I'm curious.
captainnapalm
Member
Note to all dudes - using medical terms does not make your douchery more acceptable.
Devolution
Member
Victims don't often have this power. They are blindsided by how to handle the situation based on what will keep them safe, in a job, what have you. If she tells him to stop, that's a rejection, that's a negative response when he's in a position that is not exactly independent from her own.
If we all agree that a particular action taken is reprehensible it is not the responsibility of the victim to chastise the individual but the individual to simply not do it. To take a hindsight approach of telling the victim that she failed to do any number of things when we know the fault rests completely on the other actor is just asinine and adding insult to injury.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I wish my job had as much free time as yours Jaffe
Well it's 3am where I am. I assure you, in 4 hours when I gotta get my kids up and ready for school and then head into the office I shall be cursing GAF!!!!
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
Hah. Wtf is going on in this thread. Guy can not say stupid shit anymore. Heh.
Omg. that woman propably felt uncomfortable, someone call the police. They do not have to be friends. You can call him out on this, but do not be suprised when most do not care.
Edit. Lol at victimising. How she felt do not make her any more important than that douche.
Omg. that woman propably felt uncomfortable, someone call the police. They do not have to be friends. You can call him out on this, but do not be suprised when most do not care.
Edit. Lol at victimising. How she felt do not make her any more important than that douche.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Honestly, I do feel like Jaffe has a point in terms of there being a gray area in terms of how much people are condemning the guy and what people consider sexual harassment.
What the guy did was completely inexcusable and inadmissible but I do think David gives some decent talking points. Hindsight is 20/20 but she definitely could have handled the situation better and done more to defuse it. That's not to say she should be shouldering the blame for how ridiculously unprofessional he was acting but I still feel like it's something worth reflecting on.
While it's somewhat interesting to think about and debate in the end it's really a moot point though. What he did was stupid and unacceptable and there's no getting around that fact. Even if she had done a better job of defusing the situation and making her lack of interest known it doesn't necessarily change the outcome. There's nothing good that can really come out of the situation. The only silver lining is that he should be able to use this as a way to improve his quality of life and get his mind and body in the right place.
What the guy did was completely inexcusable and inadmissible but I do think David gives some decent talking points. Hindsight is 20/20 but she definitely could have handled the situation better and done more to defuse it. That's not to say she should be shouldering the blame for how ridiculously unprofessional he was acting but I still feel like it's something worth reflecting on.
While it's somewhat interesting to think about and debate in the end it's really a moot point though. What he did was stupid and unacceptable and there's no getting around that fact. Even if she had done a better job of defusing the situation and making her lack of interest known it doesn't necessarily change the outcome. There's nothing good that can really come out of the situation. The only silver lining is that he should be able to use this as a way to improve his quality of life and get his mind and body in the right place.
Captain Fish
Member
Heh, I now realize her shadowboxing comment can be taken as a super good rejection burn.
Also, Josh, there's no bag when you shadowbox. (no partner either)
Also, Josh, there's no bag when you shadowbox. (no partner either)
Rocket Scientist
Member
Because people's lives can be destroyed by this and the only reason people want it is for their personal enjoyment. Not the actual remedying of a serious societal problem.
If you get robbed by gun point and you don't scream "Stop theif!!!!" I guess you were ok with getting robbed.
That really is the problem, nobody will ever know what was the best course of action.
Jaffe argument is more dealing with how to prevent something like this happening, which I don't think is inherently toxic idea.
I have no doubt in Jaffe's heart that doesn't want something like this to happen again and we can all agree that this guy sending the messages is a asshole.
MalevolentPatent
Banned
It's important to tell someone if you are being made uncomfortable by something they say to you. He was wrong to say what he said 100% BUT he clearly thought it would be cool. If she didn't think that was ok, she needed to tell him.
It would be nice for people to understand what makes someone else uncomfortable but if someone is doing something to make you uncomfortable for more than a one off comment, it's best to tell them.
Doesn't make what he did ok but he clearly didn't realize at the time that it wasn't ok. It's a tough situation and I sympathize with her and it doesn't let him off the hook but it would have been nice if she said something instead of taking it public. Give him at least a chance to apologize privately.
JesseEwiak
Member
b - Since 95% of the comments in this thread and the reaction on Twitter has been, "why couldn't he get a clue", the burden is on your to prove how somebody with any social skills at all (including supposedly running a dating Youtube channel) would think that she was into him at all. Frankly, I think he was trying some weird PUA strategy and when that failed, he's either actually sad about it or that's his best excuse.
c - Actually, pretty much, in the case of unwanted sexual advances, that is pretty black and white. If a girl gives her phone number to a creepy guy to get him to leave her alone, it's not her fault if he stalks her at her workplace and asks why she's ignoring his texts.
there's a difference between people warping what you're saying, and you saying things that you don't see the implications of. we know you don't intend to defend the guy, but you are dissecting and criticizing the victim (if you can accept that she was a victim of something), and it makes no sense because there is no real value in defining the 'shade of grey' in her response, especially when you haven't given much consideration to why she reacted the way she did, other than to find the dust that maybe implies she was okay with it.
a better use of your time/notoriety would be spent discouraging your peers in the industry to cut that shit out, not in condemning some girl for "no means you have to say no"
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Because I like to know if someone is actually guilty of a crime before (in my mind and in real life) throwing them under the bus.
In your video, you said that she sent mixed signals. That sounds like an excuse to me. You're actively giving him an out by saying this. How is it that, as someone who is considered so intelligent and is largely beloved for his contributions to his field, you don't think that's a little fucked up?
Devolution
Member
I'll just explain it again.
I don't see the gray area on this one. If we all here agree this behavior was appalling, then clearly it is something that is basically universally regarded as inappropriate, the onus should be on him to not do it. The onus shouldn't be on the victim to tell him to stop. And this isn't exactly bar flirting, this is work. Come on.
Rocket Scientist
Member
And here we go again, you either get raped/killed or you take it like a man and stay ''neutral''. If you people were leaders of state the world would be in constant war as clearly you feel there is absolutely zero point in talking. Every situation, every victim, every perpetrator is exactly the same and no situation can be diffused by simple talking.
I mean, you read this stuff, there is people that nothing wrong was done. The lines of harassment arent measured by some magic spell that women say and presto! its officially morally and ethically wrong because now she told him to stop. A "No" is not needed and sometimes some guy will make the "boys will be boys" argument, the problem is when that guy is your boss.
JesseEwiak
Member
Also, again, people are ignoring the power differential in action here. She's an indie developer and he's a journalist who writes about indie games. The implied message in all of this chat is basically, "tell me to stop flirting with you and say goodbye to any more stories about your game."
That's the real problem here and it's being ignored so people can talk about, "why didn't she just tell him to stop!"
That's the real problem here and it's being ignored so people can talk about, "why didn't she just tell him to stop!"
Mental Atrophy
Banned
Horrible analogy, but if somebody is a stabbing victim, I think it's pretty reasonable to suggest that they apply pressure to the wound. It doesn't make them less of a victim, but empowering people with tools to better their circumstances is a net gain. I also don't see what's wrong with hindsight... We use hindsight to make better future choices all of the time.
Devolution
Member
I mentioned this earlier ;_;.
But your hindsight is merely dictating that she take a negative rather than neutral stance. For some this means an impact on their job. This is why sexual harassment in an industry is more complicated than "just say no."
captainnapalm
Member
Ok I just saw that David Jaffe is the Game Director of God of War and the Creative Director of God of War 2. Dude, what are you doing on here.
Many people who work in the industry post here.
Why does she? Why is the burden on her to tell him to stop doing stupid behavior, when he's the one doing it? She was obviously trying to stay professional about it but he just kept at it over and over again.
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