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Fighting Games Weekly | March 3-9 | Edition Edition

D

Dahbomb

Member
This post here:

You can get better, but the list of BS/tricks that you can leverage ahead of the people who are fundamentally stronger (reaction times, etc.) diminishes over time.
Click to expand...

It sounds to me like you WANT lesser players to win over fundamentally stronger players with gimmicks.

Seems like you just don't want to see consistency in fighting games at all. You just want a game where players can out gimmick each other and there is less importance on solid, fundamental play.


Games are more fun when "anyone can be killed."
Click to expand...
Every single game has someone who can be "killed". The games where that feat is difficult to do, it's only more rewarding and exciting when you do topple that giant. Like Justin Wong in MVC2, when he was finally toppled it was exciting even though it took years for it to happen. The game didn't change... the players did.

For as good as the current gods of MVC3 are... they are not invincible or unkillable. I think SCR has finally proven this even though it took like 2 years for it to happen. It gives hope to the players just on the cusp to push to the next level. Today, a Firebrand/Skrull player won a major... tomorrow a Trish player might do it.
 
B

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Deckard Cain said:
Balance is overrated & SFIV will never be balanced so why bother? Fundimentally it's not possible. Again, I'd rather see a clash of Titans any day over two children slap fighting.

I want to see everyone at Maximum power and potential, Daigo with SFIV Ryu, vs. Mago with AE Fe Long, vs. Kazunoko with AE Yun, vs. Bonchan with SFIV Sagat, vs. Tokido and Infiltration with SFIV Akuma, vs. Poongko with SFIV Seth, vs. Justin and Ricku with SFIV Rufus, vs. PRRog with SFIV Balrog, vs. SnakeEyes with SFIV Gief, vs. Hitani with AE Makoto & so on and son.


Fuck the scrubs I wanna see the best at their best!
Click to expand...

This.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
kirblar said:
Apologyman winning was awesome. Games are more fun when "anyone can be killed."
Click to expand...
This hasn't changed though. Chris G was beat at the last WNF and has been losing more than ever too.

Gotta say I have no idea where you're coming from. Seems like you found your argument on there not being new things discovered which is causing sterility, when we just saw quite a few things at SCR, to a great number of viewers and presumably entrants. House of Crack is enjoying a renaissance with a new breed of players growing strong too. Your arguments especially break down when you compare them to what happened with SF4 where the range of new things to discover is much more limited because of the nature of the engine and the metagame relies on refinement.

I'm just going to go ahead and say like I said in the SCR thread, Marvel continues to be hype for reasons that have nothing to do with the metagame, and that won't change until it gets replaced by something that does, which 99% won't be until there is another Marvel. Every time a major comes around we see the same volley of posts/predictions that don't line up to the trajectory we see from what the game is actually doing. It's like clockwork, seems to be laying on heavy now since people are excited for USF4 and seem eager to justify their hype/experience.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Dahbomb said:
This post here:



It sounds to me like you WANT lesser players to win over fundamentally stronger players with gimmicks.

Seems like you just don't want to see consistency in fighting games at all. You just want a game where players can out gimmick each other and there is less importance on solid, fundamental play.



Every single game has someone who can be "killed". The games where that feat is difficult to do, it's only more rewarding and exciting when you do topple that giant. Like Justin Wong in MVC2, when he was finally toppled it was exciting even though it took years for it to happen. The game didn't change... the players did.

For as good as the current gods of MVC3 are... they are not invincible or unkillable. I think SCR has finally proven this even though it took like 2 years for it to happen. It gives hope to the players just on the cusp to push to the next level. Today, a Firebrand/Skrull player won a major... tomorrow a Trish player might do it.
Click to expand...
Why do I want to see this? Because I want these games to live forever and keep growing and keep players interested. It's not about wanting to see any singular result. It's about wanting the game to keep people buying it, so that people keep sending money to capcom, so that we stave off our Mobile Gaming hell and get to play in our fighting game paradise.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Azure J said:
Anyone have links to the best Melee, Marvel and SFIV stuff at SCR? I pretty much completely missed the event.
Click to expand...
I am still waiting on the top 8s and exhibitions to be uploaded on YT. Some are but a majority aren't. Don't want to waddle through Twitch archives to find the stuff.

The Snakeyez gauntlet is uploaded though, that's the best moment of the tournament by far.

Also this was hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj4viX00jP0

And they didn't even show the match before this which had to be restarted because of a DRE!
 
Shouta

Shouta

Member
Dahbomb said:
Seems like you just don't want to see consistency in fighting games at all. You just want a game where players can out gimmick each other and there is less importance on solid, fundamental play.
Click to expand...

It's about keeping players interested in the long run and you breath new life into the game when someone is given another chance to try their best with new tools or characters getting nerfed. Not sure how you missed the argument. Nerfing Cammy's divekick by removing unblockables and making it more negative on block for example, means a lot of players that couldn't avoid the vortex now can, which means there's incentive to continue playing.

On a side note, I always find the usage of the word gimmick in FGs amusing. Always reads as code for "I got hit with shit I shouldn't have but did!" to me. It's amazing when the salt leads to that argument.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
Dahbomb said:
So like Apologyman beating FChamp yesterday?

You can still have these moments when lesser players step up to the challenge. By most accounts, the "age of discovery" for the game is actually not over. I still saw new stuff at SCR in the game.
Click to expand...

The discovery phase for a game is never over. That's thing people don't seem to get. The perfect circle is just an ideal that inspires people to refine their craft at drawing circles.

Look at the MvC2 exhibition. That game's been out for a decade and a half. People still are reportedly finding new approaches/tech in that game. Kaos, a newer school player, threw a bunch of new stuff at Justin ( and still lost to Wong who was just being more fundamental). Just because the characters are the same doesn't mean the strategies/tactics/meta become stagnant.

Refinement is as potentially infinite as the human mind and often has a familiar face. I quit playing Marvel over a year ago because I didn't like the way Morri/Doom's neutral game dominance was looking to become an endgame strategy. I don't find it fun to play against and none of the characters I enjoyed playing could form a team that wouldn't be more than a gimmick-responsein a tournament setting in the face of that shell. That's borne out over the last year, but I'd be dumb to say the game stagnated in that time.

A game's refined face might fail to stimulate your imagination but that's on you. The beauty found in a face is largely subjective. Once a game has its face - some will like it. Others won't. But a game with a familiar face is better, competitively speaking, than a game without one. 2011 -12 Marvel was straight trash. The game had no face (or even worse, an ever changing one), and as such, you couldn't trust it. In 2013 the game's finally found its face but that doesn't mean that face doesn't have a variety of expressions and cosmetics to entice onlookers. Or won't develop new ones in the future to wow new and old admirers still.

...what was I talking about again?

*edit*

Kirblar's instance on an infinite growth paradigm being shoehorned into a competitive fighting game doesn't surprise me if he's being educated in economics. From a purely competitive standpoint, I see no reason why the base HAS to grow necessarily.
 
A

Anne

Member
Shouta said:
On a side note, I always find the usage of the word gimmick in FGs amusing. Always reads as code for "I got hit with shit I shouldn't have but did!" to me. It's amazing when the salt leads to that argument.
Click to expand...

I think people overuse the word gimmicks. A lot of things I initially did with Sakura were just called gimmicks, and here I am now with so many "gimmicks" people never stop getting hit.
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
Dahbomb said:
Every single game has someone who can be "killed". The games where that feat is difficult to do, it's only more rewarding and exciting when you do topple that giant. Like Justin Wong in MVC2, when he was finally toppled it was exciting even though it took years for it to happen. The game didn't change... the players did.

For as good as the current gods of MVC3 are... they are not invincible or unkillable. I think SCR has finally proven this even though it took like 2 years for it to happen. It gives hope to the players just on the cusp to push to the next level. Today, a Firebrand/Skrull player won a major... tomorrow a Trish player might do it.
Click to expand...
So uhh are you saying Firebrand/Skrull won SCR, or Apologyman? There's a difference between wanting to see rogue teams take majors and wanting lesser known players to have breakout moments. Like hoping for Smedwicks to take EVO with Zero May Cry versus Chris G taking it all with some previously unknown Iron Man/Trish/Spidey god combo.
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Shouta said:
On a side note, I always find the usage of the word gimmick in FGs amusing. Always reads as code for "I got hit with shit I shouldn't have but did!" to me. It's amazing when the salt leads to that argument.
Click to expand...

I generally take "gimmick" to mean a trick that mostly works when people don't know how to beat it.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
A gimmick is a surprise tactic without many effective layers. Its success rate lowers rapidly with more exposure. They exist. If Viper's Burn Kick could only cross up - that'd be a gimmick.

One that works with Viper a lot in the corner on a downed opponent: corpse-hop with overhead into corner > iBK out of the corner > Ultra 1. Been using it since Super and roughly 95% of people get hit by it the first time they see it. There's variations on it, with less reward that could potentially open them up again for the Ultra damage option in the future. But they're all so ineffective in relation to something more fundamentally sound that would be more consistent - like an ambiguous jump in - that it doesn't even make sense to take it that far. I use it purely when I need to land an Ultra and I have my opponent in the corner.
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Kimosabae said:
A gimmick is a surprise tactic without many effective layers. They exist. One that works with Viper a lot in the corner on a downed opponent: corpse-hop with overhead into corner > iBK out of the corner > Ultra 1. Been using it since Super and and roughly 95% of people get hit by it the first time they see it. There's variations on it, but they're all so ineffective in relation to something more fundamentally sound - like an ambiguous jump in - that it doesn't even make sense to take it that far.
Click to expand...

That's key I think
 
K

kirblar

Member
Kirblar's instance on an infinite growth paradigm being shoehorned into a competitive fighting game doesn't surprise me if he's being educated in economics. From a purely competitive standpoint, I see no reason why the base HAS to grow necessarily.
Click to expand...
You nailed the Econ degree, at least. :p

It's not the degree that's driving my stance though - it's that shifting to a heavy focus on acquiring new players blew up M:TG in the last 5 years. They did market research/focus testing and started focusing hard on attracting new players to the game. They started simplifying things, working on pruning "un-fun" strategies, and started marketing via Duels of the Planeswalkers. And it worked. The game's blown up a ridiculous amount. More money. More events. More coverage. More products.

That's why I want Capcom to turn us all into Fry, forking over our wallets to our crazed Blanka overlords. Keep working on making the games approachable to new players. Keep working on keeping the existing ones fresh, so that they don't become stale. The more players who start playing, the more money there is. The more money there is, the bigger the events, the better the sponsors, etc.

These games are awesome. I just want them to keep being able to be awesome and more awesome long past the point when any of us are here.
 
V

Vice

Member
There's a lot of tech in Marvel that's going unused. I surprised some top players with Nova and Frank gimmicks during casuals at SCR, still got bopped though. Even MvC2 took a gew years before everyone found the most broken characters and teams. Heck, there were broken characters people discovered that never got played in that game like Dhalsim.
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Vice said:
There's a lot of tech in Marvel that's going unused. I surprised some top players with Nova and Frank gimmicks during casuals at SCR, still got bopped though. Even MvC2 took a gew years before everyone found the most broken characters and teams. Heck, there were broken characters people discovered that never got played in that game like Dhalsim.
Click to expand...

That's why it's great to see a Firebrand player take SCR. Firebrand has been known to have some of the cheapest tech in the game for a while, but someone finally applied it well enough to win a major.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
kirblar said:
You nailed the Econ degree, at least. :p

It's not the degree that's driving my stance though - it's that shifting to a heavy focus on acquiring new players blew up M:TG in the last 5 years. They did market research/focus testing and started focusing hard on attracting new players to the game. They started simplifying things, working on pruning "un-fun" strategies, and started marketing via Duels of the Planeswalkers. And it worked. The game's blown up a ridiculous amount. More money. More events. More coverage. More products.

That's why I want Capcom to turn us all into Fry, forking over our wallets to our crazed Blanka overlords. Keep working on making the games approachable to new players. Keep working on keeping the existing ones fresh, so that they don't become stale. The more players who start playing, the more money there is. The more money there is, the bigger the events, the better the sponsors, etc.

These games are awesome. I just want them to keep being able to be awesome and more awesome long past the point when any of us are here.
Click to expand...

Is this supposed to challenge what I said?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Kimosabae said:
Is this supposed to challenge what I said?
Click to expand...
Only the part about the base needing to grow. If it doesn't grow and instead slowly sheds users year over year it becomes something like D&D, an increasingly niche product marketing to a smaller and smaller dying audience each year. (Like the PS1/PS2-era Dark Ages.)
 
P

Prototype

Member
casperOne said:
Akuma has been banned in anything ST for about 20 years now.
Click to expand...

You cherry pick akuma as an example, do the rest of the old characters not count as "other versions"?


http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo

Old.char.codes2.png


Old Characters

O.Sagat, O.Ken, and O.Hawk are the only old characters that are clearly better than their new counterparts. Despite losing their Super moves, and the ability to soften throws, they all gain more than enough to compensate for those loses.
Click to expand...

Other then O.Sagat who is soft banned in some places, people dealt with it and let it ride.

edit: Point being, there is precedent for allowing different editions of characters in tournament settings. People are jumping to conclusions about how edition select will effect USF4 balance on a few days of theory crafting and nothing else. That's jumping the gun in my book.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
kirblar said:
Only the part about the base needing to grow. If it doesn't grow and instead slowly sheds users year over year it becomes something like D&D, an increasingly niche product marketing to a smaller and smaller dying audience each year. (Like the PS1/PS2-era Dark Ages.)
Click to expand...

I understand that from an economics standpoint. From a competitive standpoint - I'd rather see people educated on why the endgame stage of a game can be more interesting than the tumultuous sands of refinement. I think that focus makes us more in tune with the purely intellectual aspect of the games and is morally significant.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
So uhh are you saying Firebrand/Skrull won SCR, or Apologyman? There's a difference between wanting to see rogue teams take majors and wanting lesser known players to have breakout moments. Like hoping for Smedwicks to take EVO with Zero May Cry versus Chris G taking it all with some previously unknown Iron Man/Trish/Spidey god combo.
Click to expand...
I would say it was mostly Apologyman who won SCR.

You have to realize that FChamp has played dozens upon dozens of sets against Apologyman. He could see if Apologyman messed up a timing and used the appropriate escape (either an air dash if there was a gap, a push block at the right time or an invincible Phoenix super) so his knowledge of the team was the highest among any competitor and Apologyman had to play FChamp the most at SCR so it truly was his biggest challenge. As have many of the Norcal and some of the Socal players (like Killer Kai himself). They know what to expect, this isn't some unknown gimmick. Firebrand still has to get the first hit which means he has to make the appropriate reads and play the neutral game completely honest. Apologyman did that against RayRay and he did against FChamp... not an easy feat to accomplish against the two best Magnetos in the world. Anyone who has played Firebrand knows that playing like the character like that isn't easy and it was his own fundamental skill that pushed him over the top.

Yeah the unblockable is cheap as fuck but if Firebrand dies his team loses potency very dramatically. On paper he should lose every time Firebrand dies but he pulled out many miraculous wins with both Doom and Skrull. Even getting the first hit with Firebrand is an accomplishment against characters like Zero and Magneto but Apologyman pulled it off. Nothing can take away from his accomplishment at SCR.

Yes, he probably did win some matches due to character unfamiliarity but hey... that's not his fault that's the fault of the other player not knowing the match ups.
 
Nabs

Nabs

Member
gootecks ‏@gootecks 2m
Tonight we got a star-studded show w/@INFILTRATION85, @KBradJStorm, @JaycetheAcee, @Snake_Eyez_, @eliverling, @NoelBHungry & more. 7PM
 
A

Azure J

Member
Dahbomb said:
I am still waiting on the top 8s and exhibitions to be uploaded on YT. Some are but a majority aren't. Don't want to waddle through Twitch archives to find the stuff.

The Snakeyez gauntlet is uploaded though, that's the best moment of the tournament by far.

Also this was hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj4viX00jP0

And they didn't even show the match before this which had to be restarted because of a DRE!
Click to expand...

I literally just finished watching this elsewhere and started tripping the fuck out because I vividly recalled experiences of a friend who used the Skrull/Firebrand duo online who would just get things like that at the drop of a hat. Fuck that shit, that's why I'm all in on some party games now. :lol

A Pretty Panda said:
Forget everything else

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/507707779?t=4h11m50s
Click to expand...

HOLY FUCKING SHITTTTTTTTTT
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Flying High said:
New UMVC3 Tier list by Chrisis on SRK, he rates every character by Point/Support and Combined Character Value(This is how good Chrisis thinks the character are to his current understanding, the higher their rank the greater chance they'll win you the game)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/8707575/#Comment_8707575

I dunno, but he listed Phoniex Wright not in the bottom 5 of the tier list!
Click to expand...
Dr Doom not being outside of the grid on the right side invalidates this tier list. Viper is also too high, everyone in that top 4 beats here convincingly. At least he finally had the right idea to take her out of top 2 slot... she was in his top 2 since forever and he finally took her down some spots. I would have her in top 6-7 category though just nipping at the top 5. The rest of the list seems mostly fine, he still underrates Wolverine as always.

Here's my tier list for more accuracy.
 
D

Deckard Cain

Banned
Flying High said:
New UMVC3 Tier list by Chrisis on SRK, he rates every character by Point/Support and Combined Character Value(This is how good Chrisis thinks the character are to his current understanding, the higher their rank the greater chance they'll win you the game)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/8707575/#Comment_8707575

I dunno, but he listed Phoniex Wright not in the bottom 5 of the tier list!
Click to expand...

That guy is an idiot. Always has been. Viper, Modok, Strider top tier points? GTFO. No one wins with those chatacters on point in this day & age.

Best Points:

Morrigan, Magneto, Wolverine, Zero, Firebrand, Nova, Wesker, Vergil, Haggar, Spencer.

Those are the best point characters.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Horseress said:
+R is a 100% new game or just a patch to a already released game?
Click to expand...

Complete balance overhaul. Some characters got newish moves or move properties changed up quite a bit. Also new FRC points and other things.

Very drastic changes on some characters, such as Zappa's sword in that version behaves completely new
 
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