wesleyshark
Banned
Isn't that all we ever do when we try to theorize these kind of things?
So very true. This thread is worth millions of plot dollars, at this point.
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Halo Lore Thread
- Thread starter Korten
- Start date
So very true. This thread is worth millions of plot dollars, at this point.
wesleyshark
Banned
Oh, yes. I was still thinking of Halsey's journal and going off of that. I need to read the Kilo-Five books again. I read Glasslands and Thursday War twice, but have only read Mortal Dictata once. Might be good to brush up. ☁
By Buck's induction into the Spartan program in 2553, everyone there knows the original Spartan-IIs were kids.
While you could argue that it's only known among the military... really? If the common soldiers know about it, everyone would. Even in the quasi-totalitarian state of the UNSC, info would get out.
I don't think it's a retcon, it's just people phrasing their involvement differently.
Halsey is the brainchild of the Spartan-II project, the person who made it possible--she was the one who chose genetically-screened kids. She was bankrolled and given the support she needed by ONI (although imagining Halsey going from planet-to-planet to steal kids is goofily amusing in a Home Alone kind of way.)
Parangosky's blowup in Glasslands is supposedly because Halsey lied to her about the clones, but I think in general she's just projecting her own issues. Pinning everything in Halsey also offers a useful scapegoat for ONI and the rest of the UNSC to dodge blame.
While you could argue that it's only known among the military... really? If the common soldiers know about it, everyone would. Even in the quasi-totalitarian state of the UNSC, info would get out.
I don't think it's a retcon, it's just people phrasing their involvement differently.
Halsey is the brainchild of the Spartan-II project, the person who made it possible--she was the one who chose genetically-screened kids. She was bankrolled and given the support she needed by ONI (although imagining Halsey going from planet-to-planet to steal kids is goofily amusing in a Home Alone kind of way.)
Parangosky's blowup in Glasslands is supposedly because Halsey lied to her about the clones, but I think in general she's just projecting her own issues. Pinning everything in Halsey also offers a useful scapegoat for ONI and the rest of the UNSC to dodge blame.
Rightful Chaos
Neo Member
It's true that Halsey came up with idea for Spartans, but ONI hired her to find a solution to the Innies. Once she determined that super soldiers were the best option, ONI funded and supplied everything she needed to make it happen. The only thing they didn't approve were the flash clones.
wesleyshark
Banned
Oh yeah, Halsey is certainly the scapegoat here, and I think a number of folks misread Traviss' tone and intent in that she's not trying to convince us to hate Halsey, but she's presenting a very thorough bent on why ONI despises her so greatly. I didn't seem to pick up on the pessimism that some say is there but I've definitely always looked at Halsey as a sort of necessary "evil" type in her early character arc. What she did was monstrous, but without it, earth may not have survived what was to come beyond the insurrection. Her journal definitely helps humanize her A LOT, as it's from her POV, instead of Osman's.
But all of this then leads me once again to what drove Halsey to do what she did. Her decisions, when looking across the span of her life, seem guided in a way.
You may see what I'm getting at here.
wesleyshark
Banned
Didn't she throw a cosmic pizza onto the roof of a Kig-Yar thatch hut once?
Rightful Chaos
Neo Member
She was so guided it's... it's like someone planned her destiny for her...
SmartWaffles
Member
I thought Spartans operating under Section 3 is documented way before Traviss, in
Fall of Reach after Blue Team blew up a museum in Cote d'Azure containing that crystal, when being debriefed Chief clearly stated that it was an order from ONI Section 3.
Eh, Walter White was just a dick. Halsey might be arrogant, but her actions had tangible benefits for humanity.
I'm still not sold on the whole "guided by geas" interpretation of a lot of the recent Halo lore, at least not to the extreme of "Chief has the geas of X, Halsey has Y" stuff.
The Librarian's goal for humanity to assume the mantle is pretty straightforward, and she's left plenty of hints. But she's not all-seeing, and she's not infallible (I'd say her calculation that the Didact would simmer down if he could just spend a few thousand years surfing the web pretty ridiculous, but at least she left her Force ghost on Requiem as a fail-safe.)
All these ideas come from Greg Bear's books, but I don't necessarily think 343 was aiming on adopting all of Bear's ideas into the "present day" worldthey are completely different in tone and content. Bear does hard sci-fi, but in many ways I'd say it's closer to epic myth and fantasy than the military sci-fi of Halo proper. There's also the obvious question of how you would demonstrate having another soul in you in a first-person narrative (which I think could be solvable), and the greater issue of essentially robbing all your characters of agency by suggesting they've been manipulated genetically for thousands of years beyond the Librarian's ken.
Seems much simpler and satisfying to say that the Librarian could foresee humanity reaching its previous technological peak and beyond, instead of whispering in Halsey's ear to create Cortana.
The fact that I can see this flawlessly in my mind just means that it has to be real one day.
Woah.
Walter White Forever.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'd agree with you if she wasn't presented as being largely correct.
Yeah, that's my point.
Naw, he's just a dick that's really, really good at manipulating those around him and rationalizing his actions.
MrGreencastle
Member
Dat crystal. Halo crystals are the best crystals.
Blue Ninja
Member
Considering all but one of them are dead, no. I don't think 343 will go back to that period of the canon, they're focusing on the future now.
wesleyshark
Banned
May I kindly say that I think you're going to be in for a shock.
343's approach to Halo Lore is wrapped around an utter lack of coincidences. Bungie's approach was based around the idea of luck, whereas it's been deepend into something greater and far more treacherous.
One of the best plot devices in high fantasy and hard sci-fi is the loss of magic and miracles as the modern age comes into fruition. But as these things are lost over time, whether it's out of decay, or rebellion, or cataclysm, it begins to trickle back in, slowly at first, and then in tidal forces until one or the other stands in finality.
Bear's books wouldn't exist if it weren't for a planned purpose. Yes, it gives us the history of the Forerunners that we've wanted to learn about, but it literally and figuratively plants seeds for the future. The Mantle. The Domain. The Flood. Slipspace fractal theory. These things are integral and central to everything in Halo, both past and present.
The seeds of the future... Are buried in his past.
It's a literal and figurative metaphor. The literal is in our gameplay of the MCC. The metaphorical is in what was planted and planned a millenia ago.
Sometimes seeds don't take root. Sometimes plants don't grow. It was a longshot, but one that had to be taken, because the firing of the Halos would kill off any other chance or means to the end.
wesleyshark
Banned
Change "he's" and "him" and "his" to "she's" and "her" and "hers" and it sounds awfully familiar to someone we know...
That's a bummer. Guess I'll just have to settle with Fist Full of Arrows...
link1201
Member
I hope they visit the past again one day. For example, I'd love a Spartan OP type episode/mission during early Spartan II missions/training.
Poodlestrike
Banned
We've actually run into Jun a few times now.
wesleyshark
Banned
Currently:
Jul M'dama and Halsey have both halves, I believe. Where the Key ends up from there, I'm not sure. I'd imagine Chief will Foss one or both their paths at some point in Halo 5 so it's likely.
I still think he's on the Ark in that video, though.
I still think he's on the Ark in that video, though.
wesleyshark
Banned
Wouldn't be surprised if Jun shows up in a Halo game again, considering he's been seen in the comics a couple times.
SmartWaffles
Member
Do we know about 343's stance on Fall of Reach vs Reach? Like how do they define which part of which is canon? Seeing that Jun is in Spartan IV means they definitely don't think Reach is non-canon.
Onikaan
Member
When did Halsey get the other half back? It looks like we're going to be meeting up with her at some point as Master Chief. Can't wait for that Wonder what she'll say about Cortana.
Wonder what she'll say about Cortana.Interesting, I automatically assumed he was on Sanghelios. Due to what we saw later in the MCC reveal, it made sense that Locke would be there looking for him. But since then it almost seems as if Locke is there to prove himself to Arby, perhaps seeking his advice, or even help.
wesleyshark
Banned
Aside from some date changes and how some characters escape/leave Reach, and how the coordinates for Halo are discovered they both can coexist just fine. I don't think either is officially "wrong" or "right".
MrGreencastle
Member
I like to think of the Forerunner trilogy as a sort of folklore-esque history pieced together from various places in the universe. There is almost certainly things in there that were either misinterpreted by fans, or by characters in-universe. That being said, who's to say the "data" that makes up the novels' actual content wasn't mistranslated, or doctored somewhere along the lines? Either by ONI, or even by an equivalent entity way back when - say Master Builder Faber. It's hard to say whether or not the geas will be touched upon in-game, but in the narrative threads running parallel to the story (like terminals) is somewhere they could do it without it getting a bit too cheesy. I had never expected to see Librarian or Didact in-game, either.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'd have to reread Fall of Reach to be sure, but I don't think so.
SmartWaffles
Member
Canonically I did not recall her mentioning that, but she does understand her origins, we do not know whether all AIs know their origin but Cortana surely have gone through all the ONI security to access those information.
MrGreencastle
Member
In Halo 4 she glitches out at one point, and we see a glimpse of a conversation between her and Halsey:
"I'm your greatest creation and you detest me!"
Cortana and Halsey had a professional relationship, but I think they were somewhat jealous of each other's capabilities. Of course, when it comes down to it Cortana could run laps around Halsey, but Halsey knows things like "Undid Iridium" which she pulls out during Spartan Ops to take control of the Infinity's AI, Roland .
Fun stuff, though coincidental: Iridium is element 77 on the periodic table and can be considered the densest element overall. Found in meteorites, and led to the development of the theory that a meteor hit Earth killing the dinosaurs. Name comes from latin root Iris.
Blue Ninja
Member
Hence "all but one". We'll see him again, even if only in the EU. But I don't see them going back to the Noble Team era.
I'm pretty sure she does during Halo 4, while you're driving the Warthog on Requiem.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Yeah, but that's one we've met since. Counts as meeting up with Noble Team again, IMO.
Blue Ninja
Member
Fair enough. If that's what he meant.
Yep. That's the first time in the games we get any indication of where smart AIs come from (living or dead brains), and Cortana in particular (Halsey).
Before that you may have picked up on Halsey being Cortana's creator, but I don't think the little clues in the games are enough without the books as supplemental knowledge (for example, the Cortana moments taking lines from The Fall of Reach.)
May I kindly say that I think you're going to be in for a shock.
We will see.
GringoSuave89
Banned
Boom, there it is. Thanks dude!
wesleyshark
Banned
Even in Halsey's journal, it's mentioned and inferred that Cortana was self aware of her creation.
Edit: not as literally as I thought I remembered it. It's definitely something to read between the lines about, but it's confirmed in Halo 4 so I think I merged the information in my recollection.
LordOfChaos
Member
The biggest flaw in the plan was that she didn't know the Halo rings would wipe out the Domain (which turned out to be the fabled Organon). She thought meditating on the Domain for that long is what would return him to stability with its moderating influence. Unfortunately she just ended up leaving him to his own insane thoughts for a few thousand years instead.
That was, by the way, the cruelest and the most badass plot by the Precursors so far - they forced the Forerunners to rip out their own spiritual heart unknowingly.
Rightful Chaos
Neo Member
That thought in itself is a nightmare. But in a way... it's similar to Cortana over the years on Dawn. All they could do was sit and think.
wesleyshark
Banned
I love the absolute void of hope that this caused. It was so barbaric. So brutal.
LordOfChaos
Member
nvm
wesleyshark
Banned
Not only is Halsey in trouble for the use of flash clones to replace kidnapped children, but she also had cloned herself as well. Not once, but multiple times. One of these cloned brains would be what was used to create Cortana. The other three brains are... Unknown.
And this curious paragraph...
What are these other, future plans? Certainly AI-related, but to what extent and to what capacity? Will we get to see Halsey delve into AI experimentation again? We know she was working on slipspace fractals as AI housing, as a means to overcome Rampancy, but the fruits of her labor are not evidenced beyond her meager writings in her journal. There are some torn pages that follow her brief notes... What was on those pages?
And this curious paragraph...
What are these other, future plans? Certainly AI-related, but to what extent and to what capacity? Will we get to see Halsey delve into AI experimentation again? We know she was working on slipspace fractals as AI housing, as a means to overcome Rampancy, but the fruits of her labor are not evidenced beyond her meager writings in her journal. There are some torn pages that follow her brief notes... What was on those pages?
I've completely lost my Halsey journal, pretty bummed about it. For some stupid reason I started keeping the limited edition box which came inside the legendary edition separate from the huge ONI crate, and whilst I know exactly where that and my statues is, the journal has gone walk abouts.
samurai1226
Member
Do we actually know what this forerunner articfact on Reach has to do with Cortana?
wesleyshark
Banned
In Reach, the game, I believe that's where Halsey got the coordinates for where they would later discover Halo. It's also where she was finishing touches on assisting in Cortana's assimilation of knowledge unless I completely misread that scene when I played.
wesleyshark
Banned
I bought mine off of eBay for $18 USD a few years back. WORTH EVERY PENNY.