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[charlequin]

I see kirblar got Rosewater to confirm that the W/B angel plotline was devised after the set was already locked. Setup for Innistrad 3, I guess?

It seems a real waste not to have that as a promo card.

I only quoted this because it amused me that Waste Not was highlighted by Autocard Anywhere.

Other than make Ad Nauseam a reasonably playable and competitive deck.

I'm just not convinced at a ground level that this is an actively positive and worthwhile thing.

What I'd like to see in Modern is: "8th Edition Is No Longer legal in the Modern format."

It's kind of hilarious how wacky some of the stuff that made it in there is by modern standards. It really is obvious in retrospect just how much that set really was still a remnant of the old style of design.

No, it's not. 8th/9th getting included was a net negative.

Not a tron fan?

 

[Ashodin]

Oh Randy you funny

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They can't retroactively change mana costs for cards and I doubt they will start giving gold cards aggressive costs. Additionally many formats are dominated by fetch lands and dual lands because there is no reason not to play multiple colors.

I meant going forward, the more pohibitive the cost the more the cards could be pushed.
The problem is that modern revolves around the a low CMC range mostly and that leaves little room for coloured mana.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They can't retroactively change mana costs for cards and I doubt they will start giving gold cards aggressive costs. Additionally many formats are dominated by fetch lands and dual lands because there is no reason not to play multiple colors.

They do give gold cards aggressive costs at times.

Result: Birthing Pod is banned.

 

[kirblar]

I see kirblar got Rosewater to confirm that the W/B angel plotline was devised after the set was already locked. Setup for Innistrad 3, I guess?

Zombie Angel for the monsters, Sigarda for the humans.

Not a tron fan?

Not at all. Tron, the hosers, Blood Moon - nothing but trash.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Oh Randy you funny

Didn't they used to play less events that would let you qualify back then?

 

[kirblar]

Didn't they used to play less events that would let you qualify back then?

The issue is that Randy got special treatment because of the situation w/ his wife, so he's not really in a position to judge.

 

[Ashodin]

I feel like, as an outside observer, that Randy Buehler thinks he's the granddaddy of all the pros and should be treated like Jerry the King Lawler. (lawl)

 

[Angry Grimace]

He's just one of those old-school figures from back when there were less of those people.

The reality is that the rule that doesn't let Randy play is a little weird to begin with. I'm not really sure what inside information really does to help you win.

 

[OnPoint]

"Every Planeswalker of the Gatewatch is starring in their own set" schtick

On that note, I wonder if Kaladesh will finally bring us an eternal playable Chandra.

 

[Ashodin]

On that note, I wonder if Kaladesh will finally bring us an eternal playable Chandra.

She'll be pushed as fuck, I'd imagine. Red will probably explode onto the scene in Kaladesh (no pun intended).

 

[OnPoint]

She'll be pushed as fuck, I'd imagine. Red will probably explode onto the scene in Kaladesh (no pun intended).

Especially given how bad red is right now. It kind of makes sense, now that i think about it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

He's just one of those old-school figures from back when there were less of those people.

The reality is that the rule that doesn't let Randy play is a little weird to begin with. I'm not really sure what inside information really does to help you win.

Well the fear is being ahead of the curve by having info their playtesters found.
I doubt either would risk their job by abusing it though.

 

[Maledict]

So, I decided to catch up on Rosewater's podcast for the Urza's saga section, because that was my first "proper" set where I got into magic and I love reminiscing about it. so my usual rambling thoughts:

1) Rosewater blames the entirety of the Urza disaster on "bad development" and says its probably the worse developed set they made. I think that's really, really unfair - the *design* of Urza's saga was inherently broken. Free spells were an utterly stupid mechanic that could never be balanced. The enchantment theme was a complete failure. The legendary mana lands were inherently balanced and could never be balanced.

It feels like his pushing blame for the set onto development when actually the design of the set is shit. It's an incoherent set that was trying to do Time Spiral block before Time Spiral - there were tons of call backs and references to old magic, including numerous redone cards. Unfortunately they were all completely ballsed up and ended up in many cases being more powerful than the original cards...

2) Old person reminiscing - it feels like modern magic has too much multi-colour in it, particularly "enemy" multi-colour. I remember when the Apocalypse set was a huge, huge thing as it focussed on enemy colours, and how Invasion as a whole was amazing because of the multi-colour theme. Now every other block is multi-colour focussed in some way, and there really doesn't seem that much difference between allied colours and enemy colours - both get arch-types deliberately designed for limited, both get multi-coloured cards in most sets, and most of the usual colour hosers have completely gone. Maybe its better for the game overall, but it does feel like multi-colour is way too common right now and has lost some of the magic, particularly enemy coloured stuff.

(this came to me because Urza's block had a monocoloured theme, and I was thinking how utterly impossible that would now be in modern magic design).

Random old person ramblings!

 

[charlequin]

Zombie Angel for the monsters, Sigarda for the humans.

I'd like the third Innistrad block to cover the missing Angel and missing Vampire family, those both seem potentially interesting.

The issue is that Randy got special treatment because of the situation w/ his wife, so he's not really in a position to judge.

How was it special from that specifically? My impression at the time was always just that he sneaked in by being a pro in an earlier, more forgiving era and being buddies with a lot of other pros.

 

[kirblar]

The issue has been that the game hasn't treated enemy multicolor the same, resulting in the enemy multicolor cards just being straight up better for so long. The modern way is better.

Randy can't play because of his wife. It's a unique circumstance that led to him getting special treatment.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Randy once asked WOTC whether they would let him play in PTs if he divorced his wife but didn't move out of their house.

 

[Santiako]

She'll be pushed as fuck, I'd imagine. Red will probably explode onto the scene in Kaladesh (no pun intended).

On that note, I wonder if Kaladesh will finally bring us an eternal playable Chandra.

She's the intro deck planeswalker, so I wonder if she's not actually getting a card that you can get in the boosters.

 

[Supast4r]

The issue has been that the game hasn't treated enemy multicolor the same, resulting in the enemy multicolor cards just being straight up better for so long. The modern way is better.

Randy can't play because of his wife. It's a unique circumstance that led to him getting special treatment.

What happened with his wife?

 

[Angry Grimace]

They should just reprint any one of the bad Chandras for the intro decks.

What happened with his wife?

She works for WOTC as their senior editor and he's not eligible to play because she works for the company.

 

[Ashodin]

She's the intro deck planeswalker, so I wonder if she's not actually getting a card that you can get in the boosters.

Those cards are made just for the Planeswalker decks, so there's liable to be TWO of her.

 

[Santiako]

Those cards are made just for the Planeswalker decks, so there's liable to be TWO of her.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Having two chandras in the same set (even if you can only open one of them) would be kinda weird.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Having two chandras in the same set (even if you can only open one of them) would be kinda weird.

The question is are the Planeswalker packs going to be their own set #, or will they occupy Kaladesh's #'s? What will that look like? It's going to be so weird.

Also I think this allows them to not create shitty ass rares for the main set because they have this whole other product they can create shitty cards for.

 

[bigkrev]

How was it special from that specifically? My impression at the time was always just that he sneaked in by being a pro in an earlier, more forgiving era and being buddies with a lot of other pros.

He was the first pro player hired in to R&D after the Urza's block disaster, which prematurely ended his pro career, and people give him the benefit of doubt because he was well on his way to a HOF career, and only stopped playing Magic so he could go and "save" Magic

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The question is are the Planeswalker packs going to be their own set #, or will they occupy Kaladesh's #'s? What will that look like? It's going to be so weird.

Also I think this allows them to not create shitty ass rares for the main set because they have this whole other product they can create shitty cards for.

Intro packs had their own rares already, new ones even.

 

[Ashodin]

Intro packs had their own rares already, new ones even.

Yeah but they were a part of the larger set, meaning you still open them without buying Intro Packs. Planeswalker cards will ONLY be available in their packs, meaning collectors now HAVE to buy them to complete their collection. The Intro Pack cards were just art

 

[kirblar]

Random just in case card to grab a set of: Mana Seism

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah but they were a part of the larger set, meaning you still open them without buying Intro Packs. Planeswalker cards will ONLY be available in their packs, meaning collectors now HAVE to buy them to complete their collection. The Intro Pack cards were just art

I meant welcome deck rares not intro pack.

Shivan Dragon and Nightmare were also standard legal the whole time

 

[Ashodin]

Those are also shitty cards

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So are the PWs supposed to be

 

[Ashodin]

So are the PWs supposed to be

Which is why I believe Chandra Prime (not Chandra-Kaladesh2) will be pushed as fuck.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think everyone on the beta really really really really wants UR spells to be good and it consistently isn't good.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The beta is live? I was waiting for an email.

 

[El Topo]

They do give gold cards aggressive costs at times.

Result: Birthing Pod is banned.

Wrong wording, sorry. I meant I doubt that they'll start making mana costs so much worse (i.e. BBRR instead of 2RB).

 

[Angry Grimace]

The beta is live? I was waiting for an email.

If you were already in the MTGO beta they will send you a single link (last Friday) and that's it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If you were already in the MTGO beta they will send you a single link (last Friday) and that's it.

Just checked the forum and apparently some people were lost from their database.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

She'll be pushed as fuck, I'd imagine. Red will probably explode onto the scene in Kaladesh (no pun intended).

Shrapnel Blast is RIPE for the return in Kaladesh with all the artifice.

So are the PWs supposed to be

 

[Angry Grimace]

They're not printing Shrapnel Blast in Kaladesh for the same reason Incendiary Flow is the best burn spell in Standard.

 

[SigmasonicX]

So, I decided to catch up on Rosewater's podcast for the Urza's saga section, because that was my first "proper" set where I got into magic and I love reminiscing about it. so my usual rambling thoughts:

1) Rosewater blames the entirety of the Urza disaster on "bad development" and says its probably the worse developed set they made. I think that's really, really unfair - the *design* of Urza's saga was inherently broken. Free spells were an utterly stupid mechanic that could never be balanced. The enchantment theme was a complete failure. The legendary mana lands were inherently balanced and could never be balanced.

It feels like his pushing blame for the set onto development when actually the design of the set is shit. It's an incoherent set that was trying to do Time Spiral block before Time Spiral - there were tons of call backs and references to old magic, including numerous redone cards. Unfortunately they were all completely ballsed up and ended up in many cases being more powerful than the original cards...

Development can completely change individual cards. If the good legendary lands were too powerful, they could have made them as weak as the red and black ones. Design is more for exploring what sort of themes they can do, and Development uses that as a starting point to make a set with an eye on real world formats. With the exception of free spells being innately broken, everything powerlevel related is due to Development.

2) Old person reminiscing - it feels like modern magic has too much multi-colour in it, particularly "enemy" multi-colour. I remember when the Apocalypse set was a huge, huge thing as it focussed on enemy colours, and how Invasion as a whole was amazing because of the multi-colour theme. Now every other block is multi-colour focussed in some way, and there really doesn't seem that much difference between allied colours and enemy colours - both get arch-types deliberately designed for limited, both get multi-coloured cards in most sets, and most of the usual colour hosers have completely gone. Maybe its better for the game overall, but it does feel like multi-colour is way too common right now and has lost some of the magic, particularly enemy coloured stuff.

(this came to me because Urza's block had a monocoloured theme, and I was thinking how utterly impossible that would now be in modern magic design).

Random old person ramblings!

Theros block heavily pushed monocolor with devotion. In constructed, devotion decks even pushed out multicolor decks when it shared Standard with Return to Ravnica!

 

[charlequin]

The question is are the Planeswalker packs going to be their own set #, or will they occupy Kaladesh's #'s? What will that look like? It's going to be so weird.

I'd bet they'll be numbered after the main numbers (stuff like 257/249) like the extra cards from 10E and M15 are.

Also I think this allows them to not create shitty ass rares for the main set because they have this whole other product they can create shitty cards for.

I don't think this product specifically enables that, but the fact that they no longer need five boring Timmy creatures filling the five iconic species to put in five precon sets and/or intro decks should be a nice weight lifted from their rare design requirements.

He was the first pro player hired in to R&D after the Urza's block disaster, which prematurely ended his pro career, and people give him the benefit of doubt because he was well on his way to a HOF career, and only stopped playing Magic so he could go and "save" Magic

Oh I mean I know why players might give him an odd benefit of the doubt there, I thought kirblar was suggesting he was getting some form of unique treatment from WotC themselves and didn't know what that could be.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So is there a case to be made for succumb to temptation over read the bones and painful truths? The instant speed is very inviting

 

[charlequin]

1) Rosewater blames the entirety of the Urza disaster on "bad development" and says its probably the worse developed set they made. I think that's really, really unfair - the *design* of Urza's saga was inherently broken. Free spells were an utterly stupid mechanic that could never be balanced. The enchantment theme was a complete failure. The legendary mana lands were inherently balanced and could never be balanced.

I'd disagree with this on the basis that brokenness aside, Urza's Saga block has been a huge boon to the game. These sets have tons of cards that are imaginative and exciting -- Sneak Attack and Show and Tell provide cool and interesting new ways to put cards into play, Morphling totally reinvented the control finisher, the manlands added a new dimension to mana bases, Yawgmoth's Will is the spiritual ancestor to all kinds of cool spells-from-the-graveyard cards, Priest of Titania transformed what tribal elves (and really tribal decks in general) could be, etc. The Vintage format wouldn't exist in anything like its current form without Tolarian Academy, Tinker, Yawg's Will, etc. Most of these cards were actually really exciting when the set came out too!

The reason I think it's fair to blame development on this is that the problems are very much about cards that are unbalanced, that have incorrect levels of synergy compared to one another, that do things in conjunction with other cards that blow the game open. That's exactly the sort of thing development is supposed to stop. (And Rosewater was on the development team for this set, so he's admitting personal fault when he blames that team.)

If you want to consider the exact opposite, Champions of Kamigawa is a horribly designed set rescued (inasmuch as it was) by good development.

2) Old person reminiscing - it feels like modern magic has too much multi-colour in it, particularly "enemy" multi-colour.

I think R&D is 100% right on this, it's bad for the game to have enemy pairs be weaker and less playable. In the pre-Apocalypse era there was a serious dearth of enemy-color strategies because they had worse mana fixing, worse cards, and more hosers. The modern approach doesn't reflect that "flavor" as well but it's much, much better for the game.

 

[Supast4r]

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Having two chandras in the same set (even if you can only open one of them) would be kinda weird.

We have two Jace this standard. Is it kinda weird?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I gotta say that I'm starting to really tire of UR Spells matches. That's all I play even if they're all different flavors they're never good decks.

 

[Santiako]

We have two Jace this standard. Is it kinda weird?

Are they on the same set? No.

We have two of everyone this standard, btw

 

[Supast4r]

Which is why I believe Chandra Prime (not Chandra-Kaladesh2) will be pushed as fuck.

Wizards has gotten the formula for planeswalkers down well in the last few sets as most of he planeswalkers see standard play these days. Kaladesh Chandra will be as strong as oath Chandra imho

 

[Supast4r]

Are they on the same set? No.

We have two of everyone this standard, btw

Intro planeswalkers are not cards in the new set. They are separate. My example still stands

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Wizards has gotten the formula for planeswalkers down well in the last few sets as most of he planeswalkers see standard play these days. Kaladesh Chandra will be as strong as oath Chandra imho

Well that's the strongest chandra so far.

 

[HK-47]

thpbt
I guess I shouldn't expect good storytelling done through the format of trading cards.

I'm less worried about storytelling than I am about letting new planes be the most important character and letting them define themselves.

 

[platypotamus]

It seems a real waste not to have that as a promo card.

I only quoted this because it amused me that Waste Not was highlighted by Autocard Anywhere.

I actually thought Black Marvel was referencing some situation where the card Waste Not was a promo, and nobody liked it or something. I thought "that's a weird sentence structure, but okay".