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[Airbus Jr]

I know right? Why can’t I just blindly go along with giving $33 billion to a country with a clear pattern of corrupt behavior? Why should it matter whether half the money gets stolen as long as some of it does something good? I’ll try to be a better cheerleader next time.

Like i said earlier its useless talking to you cos you re an awfull person and care more about money then helping ukraine

Anyway decision has been made the us government has agreed to give 33 billion donation to help ukraine

Have a nice day

 

[DeepBreath87]

Like i said earlier its useless talking to you cos you re an awfull person and care more about money then helping ukraine

Anyway decision has been made the us government has agreed to give 33 billion donation to help ukraine

Have a nice day

I know. I’m such a big meany for asking questions about my government. What kind of jerk doesn’t just cheer when the government tells them something. If they say it’s to fight the Russians, we should all just nod in unison like good boys and girls. I’ll do better next time.

 

[Relique]

I know right? Why can’t I just blindly go along with giving $33 billion to a country with a clear pattern of corrupt behavior? Why should it matter whether half the money gets stolen as long as some of it does something good? I’ll try to be a better cheerleader next time.

You shouldn't have even bothered as trying to ask any sort of question about anything that falls outside blind and complete support around here is only going to get you labelled as inhuman. If you persist you end up labelled a tovarich. This thread is is like a pocket Ree. It's not even really good for news updates anymore.

 

[Airbus Jr]

I know. I’m such a big meany for asking questions about my government. What kind of jerk doesn’t just cheer when the government tells them something. If they say it’s to fight the Russians, we should all just nod in unison like good boys and girls. I’ll do better next time.

33 billion is nuthing burger for US military defence budget

Why are you making such a huge deal over this just to help the people in ukraine defend themselves agaisnt russian invasion?

Seriously some of you guys here are really fcked up

 

[FunkMiller]

And there it is. How is this relevant to what he said? What he said isn’t even controversial. It’s a fact. The US has had a bad habit of supplying weapons that end up in the hands of the people the US military ends up fighting themselves down the line. That’s not some foreign disinformation bullshit. That’s historical fact.


So no, the two eastern most provinces in Ukraine are not an existential threat to the western world. Russia has clearly demonstrated they have no ability to project power on the kind of scale you’re talking about. They couldn’t take a moderately sized country on their own border and have lost thousands of troops and pieces of equipment only to be relegated to trying to squeeze out a consolation prize in the form of two provinces they already effectively controlled to begin with.

Now a lot of that has to do with the aid they have been provided, and I support aiding them. But the idea that this has been “carefully thought through”? I know you’re not American, so it can be forgiven that you don’t know this, but our government doesn’t operate that way.

What they do is budget outrageous sums of money and just shovel it out the door. That’s why the government itself estimates that 10% of the $800 billion dollar paycheck protection program during covid was given out to fraudulent actors. They estimate that $90-$400 billion of the unemployment relief was fraudulent during covid as well.

So I guess, if we’re just fucking giving money to every crook and scumbag on earth, there are certainly worse ways we could do it than trying to also help Ukraine. But I am extremely tired of watching our country be looted out from under us because the people in charge don’t give a shit about being responsible. So do I trust the Ukrainians? You guys act like unscrupulous people don’t take advantage of war to their own ends. And Ukraine has a well documented history of corruption. So I don’t exactly expect anything different now.

One the bold: the guy is spouting the same old 'US is as bad as Russia/Nazis' bullshit that is the universal mark of a Russian sympathiser. It's probably a valid question...

As for the rest, surely the risk of some small amount of money going missing is worth it, if many Ukrainian lives can be saved, and that Russia's depredations are put a stop to?

Are you essentially claiming that 33 billion (a tiny fraction of the US defence budget) isn't worth the risk to put war atrocities to an end?

 

[TransTrender]

LOL people getting upset over $33 Billion. That's truly a drop in the bucket even for some states. California has a GSP of $3.4 Trillion. $33B is almost to the $31B in COVID unemployment fraud that's estimated to have happened in California as of August 2021 based on this article. I'm guessing the $33B number was already crossed. That's also a drop in the bucket to the hundreds of billions of dollars that went to Russia, China, and other bad actors during the COVID bailout programs. Then of course Afghanistan.

So yeah, I'm absolutely OK with $33B USD going to Ukraine even if only a quarter makes it there.

 

[DeepBreath87]

One the bold: the guy is spouting the same old 'US is as bad as Russia/Nazis' bullshit that is the universal mark of a Russian sympathiser. It's probably a valid question...

As for the rest, surely the risk of some small amount of money going missing is worth it, if many Ukrainian lives can be saved, and that Russia's depredations are put a stop to?

Are you essentially claiming that 33 billion (a tiny fraction of the US defence budget) isn't worth the risk to put war atrocities to an end?

I doubt it will be a small percentage. The guy below you doesn’t care if 75% of the money gets stolen. That’s where we are now as a country. So desensitized to corruption that people don’t care if $24 billion gets stolen if it makes us feel like we did something good. Of course we could fund things more slowly and at least pretend we are keeping track of the money, but if a politician convinces us that the larger the number, the more you care, people just line up to be swindled. All in the name of feeling good. Sad to see.

 

[Rentahamster]

You are not any better. You want innocent Russians To die

War is never good for anyone but the most powerful.

That’s why I’m against this war. That’s why I was against the last and why I’m against the next one. You are wrong for wanting your government to take from people to just wage another ideological war.

The People of Urkraine, modern US progressives are realizing now why the US has the 2a

If you were so sure this is a good thing why were you standing wage region years ago? What changed?

If you're against this war, take it up with the Russians. They started it.

Don't be surprised when a sovereign nation tries to defend itself from Russian imperialist aggression and others try to help it.

 

[FunkMiller]

I doubt it will be a small percentage. The guy below you doesn’t care if 75% of the money gets stolen. That’s where we are now as a country. So desensitized to corruption that people don’t care if $24 billion gets stolen if it makes us feel like we did something good. Of course we could fund things more slowly and at least pretend we are keeping track of the money, but if a politician convinces us that the larger the number, the more you care, people just line up to be swindled. All in the name of feeling good. Sad to see.

You actually have no proof that this is happening, or likely to happen though, do you?

The situation in Ukraine was inexorably changed the day the Russians invaded, and started to commit war atrocities. It is a nation fighting for its very existence. Applying the same sensibilities the country may have had in peace time is rather redundant (although by many accounts Zelensky was cleaning things up quite a lot).

Who exactly is left to steal all this cash, when the nation has been militarised far beyond civilian life? Are you claiming that the Ukrainian government are corrupt? That Zelensky and co are going to squirrel that money away? Because what proof do you have of that? Aren't you just ascribing the wartime morality of the Russians onto the Ukrainians, because you're uncomfortable with US foreign policy?

And again, I ask... even if you did have any proof that this kind of thing could go on, is it not worth the risk to help the Ukrainians stave off the modern day equivalent of the Nazis? How would you feel if they were coming to murder your family, and help was withheld to you, because somebody had some doubts?

 

[Airbus Jr]

I doubt it will be a small percentage. The guy below you doesn’t care if 75% of the money gets stolen. That’s where we are now as a country. So desensitized to corruption that people don’t care if $24 billion gets stolen if it makes us feel like we did something good. Of course we could fund things more slowly and at least pretend we are keeping track of the money, but if a politician convinces us that the larger the number, the more you care, people just line up to be swindled. All in the name of feeling good. Sad to see.

You really think some ukraine officials gona corrupt and stole this donation money for their own good and ignore whats happened right now

Do you have any clear picture on whats going on there right now

Only a total asshat would think like this

 

[Relique]

LOL people getting upset over $33 Billion. That's truly a drop in the bucket even for some states. California has a GSP of $3.4 Trillion. $33B is almost to the $31B in COVID unemployment fraud that's estimated to have happened in California as of August 2021 based on this article. I'm guessing the $33B number was already crossed. That's also a drop in the bucket to the hundreds of billions of dollars that went to Russia, China, and other bad actors during the COVID bailout programs. Then of course Afghanistan.

So yeah, I'm absolutely OK with $33B USD going to Ukraine even if only a quarter makes it there.

I don't think anyone was even upset or against the aid. Just pointed out some questionable things about the specifics of the way it was handled. Up to now there's been cooperation between different nations and meetings to get smaller aid packages approved as the conflict went on, with all the money seemingly going to the right places.

This one has a few weird new items we haven't funded before like part of the aid going to counter Russian propaganda and funding local media. In addition, part of the package was basically food but instead of us sending the aid ourselves, cash is being entrusted to Ukraine's energy department to spend over the next few months. Given history of corruption on both sides it's okay to ask questions and have a discussion especially when the money is coming out of the person's taxes.

The US spearheads a lot of the aid that goes out to the world. Most recently during Covid and this conflict but at the same time a lot of our local problems are getting worse and we are told that there are no funds. While we want to help as much as possible we also want the government to be responsible with the funds.

You really think some ukraine officials gona corrupt and stole this donation money for their own good and ignore whats happened right now

Do you have any clear picture on whats going on there right now

Historically corruption thrives during war times. When others were suffering is when scumbags stole or benefitted the most. It's an unfortunate reality of the world.

Anyway I am done participating in this for today lest it gets into name calling again.

 

[Airbus Jr]

I don't think anyone was even upset or against the aid. Just pointed out some questionable things about the specifics of the way it was handled. Up to now there's been cooperation between different nations and meetings to get smaller aid packages approved as the conflict went on, with all the money seemingly going to the right places.

This one has a few weird new items we haven't funded before like part of the aid going to counter Russian propaganda and funding local media. In addition, part of the package was basically food but instead of us sending the aid ourselves, cash is being entrusted to Ukraine's energy department to spend over the next few months. Given history of corruption on both sides it's okay to ask questions and have a discussion especially when the money is coming out of the person's taxes.

The US spearheads a lot of the aid that goes out to the world. Most recently during Covid and this conflict but at the same time a lot of our local problems are getting worse and we are told that there are no funds. While we want to help as much as possible we also want the government to be responsible with the funds.


Historically corruption thrives during war times. When others were suffering is when scumbags stole or benefitted the most. It's an unfortunate reality of the world.

Anyway I am done participating in this for today lest it gets into name calling again.

So your solution is just dont donate and help ukraine at all since the money will be corrupted

Nice armadillo logic

 

[Relique]

So your solution is just dont donate and help ukraine at all since the money will be corrupted

Nice

I never said anything like that. I don't know where you got that. If you read the post at all I said I wasn't against the aid at all.

I am starting to feel like people around here have severe reading comprehension problems.

 

[Airbus Jr]

I never said anything like that. I don't know where you got that. If you read the post at all I said I wasn't against the aid at all.

I am starting to feel like people around here have severe reading comprehension problems.

You said youre not against the aid but earlier you said dont donate cos donating for ukraine is useless cos the money will be corrupted by the government?

Feck are you on about

 

[Rentahamster]

Historically corruption thrives during war times. When others were suffering is when scumbags stole or benefitted the most. It's an unfortunate reality of the world.

It sure does. Just take a look at all the outdated, malfunctioning, and poorly maintained equipment the Russian army fields because of rampant corruption. One would think that if Ukraine suffers as much corruption as people say they do, their military would be at a similar piss poor readiness level. But they're not.

This isn't strong evidence in and of itself, but it's a concrete observation I can point to.

 

[Relique]

You said youre not against the aid but earlier you said dont donate cos donating for ukraine is useless cos the money will be corrupted by the government?

Feck are you on about

Yeah again if you are going to put words in my mouth then I can't have a proper discussion with you. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just assume you misunderstood the point. I never said any of that shit.

It sure does. Just take a look at all the outdated, malfunctioning, and poorly maintained equipment the Russian army fields because of rampant corruption. One would think that if Ukraine suffers as much corruption as people say they do, their military would be at a similar piss poor readiness level. But they're not.

This isn't strong evidence in and of itself, but it's a concrete observation I can point to.

Yeah that's a fair enough counter point. Ukraine military has displayed a good level of competency in this war and has used the aid well so far.

 

[DeepBreath87]

It sure does. Just take a look at all the outdated, malfunctioning, and poorly maintained equipment the Russian army fields because of rampant corruption. One would think that if Ukraine suffers as much corruption as people say they do, their military would be at a similar piss poor readiness level. But they're not.

This isn't strong evidence in and of itself, but it's a concrete observation I can point to.

This is just a quick google search but it turns up this

According to Transparency International's 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index, (a scale of least to most corrupt nations), Ukraine ranked 122nd out of 180 countries in 2021, the second most corrupt in Europe, with Russia the most at 136.

So it seems like Russia and Ukraine are at least comparable in terms of corruption. I’d wager the major difference between the two is that Ukraine is backed by the US, who supplies them with quality equipment and has been involved with their training. And while the US wastes a ridiculous amount of money on inefficiencies and fraud, no one does war anywhere close to the level the of the US.

So Russia doesn’t have the benefit of being backed by countries that don’t suffer from the terrible kinds of corruption that have rotted their military. Ukraine, while corrupt in and of themselves, are buoyed by countries that are not.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yeah that's a fair enough counter point. Ukraine military has displayed a good level of competency in this war and has used the aid well so far.

A more corrupt leadership and military would most likely have already acquiesced or been destroyed by now. I think the Ukrainians have proven their ability to get shit done at this point. Money tends to be used fairly effectively if the consequence for failing is death.

This isn't to say the Americans shouldn't keep track of the money and how it's spent, but given the circumstances, I'll allow it, even despite my misgivings about militarized foreign spending in general.

 

[EviLore]

The supplies sent up to this point have been used to very good effect. As the situation escalates to large-scale open warfare in Donbass, the Ukrainian army requires more than small arms to hold the line, and aid provided has scaled up appropriately. We're working closely with them every step of the way, not dropping it off blindly, and we'll know if Ukrainian generals start trading howitzers for hookers and blow. The country would fall, besides.

 

[FatallyYours]

Is there a good article somewhere that anyone can point me towards that explains how the $33b is being split and used, the UK press is just very general about it

 

[Tams]

Yup, turns to Gas. Travels on wind.

Anyone that paid attention to a history book would know. Was taught this in school. As a kid.

So you're claiming to have learnt this from a history book.

This is despite the fact that from nuclear bomb/missile use, there has been almost no evidence of widespread radiation illness from them, only localised cases.

And even Chernobyl, not a bomb or missile, with the weather to spread it, only had relatively short term effects radioactively.

 

[DeepBreath87]

The supplies sent up to this point have been used to very good effect. As the situation escalates to large-scale open warfare in Donbass, the Ukrainian army requires more than small arms to hold the line, and aid provided has scaled up appropriately. We're working closely with them every step of the way, not dropping it off blindly, and we'll know if Ukrainian generals start trading howitzers for hookers and blow. The country would fall, besides.

To this point, the US has sent about $3-4 billion according to this article from the AP:

Biden announces heavy artillery, other weapons for Ukraine

President Joe Biden has pledged $1.3 billion more for new weapons and economic assistance to help Ukraine in its strong but increasingly difficult battle against the Russian invasion.

apnews.com

We are now talking about nearly 10x that number. I’d question why the escalation when the conflict has become more localized. I have just seen what happens as the numbers explode. All the sudden there are a lot of people all reaching for their piece.

 

[Durien]

Lol this could be the tagline for a Dr. Stangelove 2.

Dr Strangelove 2 or How

Ukrainian generals start trading howitzers for hookers and blow.

 

[Relique]

Is there a good article somewhere that anyone can point me towards that explains how the $33b is being split and used, the UK press is just very general about it

FACT SHEET: White House Calls on Congress to Provide Additional Support for Ukraine | The White House

The assistance the Biden-Harris Administration has provided to Ukraine to date has made a significant difference on the battlefield, helping Ukrainians

www.whitehouse.gov

This is the link I used and quoted from. For whatever reason it's not on their front page

 

[EviLore]

To this point, the US has sent about $3-4 billion according to this article from the AP:

Biden announces heavy artillery, other weapons for Ukraine

President Joe Biden has pledged $1.3 billion more for new weapons and economic assistance to help Ukraine in its strong but increasingly difficult battle against the Russian invasion.

apnews.com

We are now talking about nearly 10x that number. I’d question why the escalation when the conflict has become more localized. I have just seen what happens as the numbers explode. All the sudden there are a lot of people all reaching for their piece.

It's an authorization through September. The previous $13.6 billion authorization has been mostly exhausted over these last two months. It's still going to be distributed incrementally as before.

 

[Rentahamster]

This is just a quick google search but it turns up this

So it seems like Russia and Ukraine are at least comparable in terms of corruption. I’d wager the major difference between the two is that Ukraine is backed by the US, who supplies them with quality equipment and has been involved with their training. And while the US wastes a ridiculous amount of money on inefficiencies and fraud, no one does war anywhere close to the level the of the US.

So Russia doesn’t have the benefit of being backed by countries that don’t suffer from the terrible kinds of corruption that have rotted their military. Ukraine, while corrupt in and of themselves, are buoyed by countries that are not.

Corruption in Ukraine is largely a holdover of Russian/Soviet influence. The current administration is trying to reduce it, and is one of the reasons they got elected (and also revolted and threw out their previous leaders earlier).

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

United States diplomats described Ukraine under Presidents Kuchma (in office from 1994 to 2005) and Yushchenko (in office from 2005 to 2010) as a kleptocracy, according to WikiLeaks cables.[8]

On 27 October 2020, the Constitutional Court of Ukraine ruled that anti-corruption legislation, including the mandatory electronic declaration of income, was unconstitutional.[111] President Zelensky warned that if parliament did not restore these anti-corruption laws, foreign aid, loans and a visa-free travel to the European Union were at risk. The Governor of the National Bank of Ukraine reported that Ukraine will not receive the scheduled $700 million IMF load before the end of 2020 because of the issue. IMF assessment teams had not visited Kyiv for eight months, which is necessary for further IMF loan tranches to be released.[112][113]

On 4 December 2020, the Ukrainian parliament restored anti-corruption legislation shut down by the court decision, when it reauthorised criminal penalties for officials who provide false information about their incomes.[114] On 29 December 2020 President Volodymyr Zelensky suspended the Constitutional Court's chairperson Oleksandr Tupytskyi [uk] for two months in an effort to overturn the court's October 2020 decision.[115]

2020–2022 Ukrainian constitutional crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On 26 February 2021, President Zelenskyy signed a decree that suspended chairperson Tupytskyi for another month.[14]

On 27 March 2021, Zelenskyy annulled the decree of former President Viktor Yanukovych of May 2013, appointing Oleksandr Tupytskyi and Oleksandr Kasminin [uk] judges of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine.[15] According to Zelenskyy, their tenure did "pose a threat to state independence and national security of Ukraine, which violates the Constitution of Ukraine, human and civil rights and freedoms."[15] According to Zelenskyy, their appointments were canceled following an audit of the decrees of President Yanukovych carried out by the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine.[16]

On 14 July 2021, the administrative court within the Constitutional Court declared Zelenskyy's 27 March 2021 decree illegal and revoked it.[17] The court concluded that "the President of Ukraine does not have the authority to decide on the dismissal or termination of powers of judges of the Constitutional Court or to decide to revoke the decree on the previous appointment of a judge of the Constitutional Court."[17]

On 19 October 2021 the Constitutional Court (itself) began considering the constitutionality of President Zelenskyy's three decrees that suspended the courts own chairperson Tupytskyi.[18] Proceedings were opened due to a constitutional request of 49 Ukrainian MP's, mostly members of the Batkivshchyna faction.[18]

On 26 November 2021 President Zelenskyy appointed Oksana Hryshchuk and Oleksandr Petryshyn judges of the Constitutional Court, although on 14 July 2021 the Constitutional Court had declared Zelenskyy's 27 March 2021 decree to dismiss Oleksandr Tupytskyi and Oleksandr Kasminin illegal and thus technically there were no vacancies in the Constitutional Court.[19] Four days later the judges of the Constitutional Court decided not to swear in Hryshchuk and Petryshyn "until vacancies appear."[20]

 

[FatallyYours]

FACT SHEET: White House Calls on Congress to Provide Additional Support for Ukraine | The White House

The assistance the Biden-Harris Administration has provided to Ukraine to date has made a significant difference on the battlefield, helping Ukrainians

www.whitehouse.gov

This is the link I used and quoted from. For whatever reason it's not on their front page

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Tams]

Yeah. The position of expecting some level of responsibility from my government is a radical position these days. If I don’t reflexively support emergency funding to the tune of the 11th largest military budget on earth straight to a country with very well documented corruption and fraud issues, I must be shilling for Vlad. But I don’t know what I’m worried about. The US government has such a great track record when it comes to fiscal stewardship…

Me, me, me, me, me, me.

Also completely ignoring that the war in Ukraine is impacting you. And it wpuld be even worse if Ukraine lose.

 

[Tams]

I never said anything like that. I don't know where you got that. If you read the post at all I said I wasn't against the aid at all.

I am starting to feel like people around here have severe reading comprehension problems.

That's because you were defending someone ( DeepBreath87 ) who was in a roundabout way suggesting the aid package shouldn't be given.

You even used some of the same wording and arguments, so itcs pretty obvious why people would get confused.

Anyway, this is veering off into US domestic politics, which really isn't the scope of this thread nor supposed to be on this forum anymore.

 

[FunkMiller]

Corruption in Ukraine is largely a holdover of Russian/Soviet influence. The current administration is trying to reduce it, and is one of the reasons they got elected (and also revolted and threw out their previous leaders earlier).

I find the logic ‘don’t give to an independent Ukraine to fight Russia, because it was corrupt when it was more like Russia’ to be… a curious position.

It rather smacks of victim blaming.

Maybe we should be giving the hammered and beleaguered nation that didn’t ask for any of this, the benefit of the doubt? Especially when by doing so we can… you know… stop actual war crimes being committed.

 

[Gp1]

Welcome to Red Alert 2!

 

[Relique]

That's because you were defending someone ( DeepBreath87 ) who was in a roundabout way suggesting the aid package shouldn't be given.

You even used some of the same wording and arguments, so itcs pretty obvious why people would get confused.

Anyway, this is veering off into US domestic politics, which really isn't the scope of this thread nor supposed to be on this forum anymore.

If people are confused then that's on them. Maybe they should focus on what I was saying instead of who they think I am defending.

He is entitled to his opinion and as long as it's on topic and is respectful I don't see why people dogpile for disagreeing. He was called "asshat, tovarich, and awful person" in the past couple of pages. There is no need for this.

 

[akimbo009]

If people are confused then that's on them. Maybe they should focus on what I was saying instead of who they think I am defending.

He is entitled to his opinion and as long as it's on topic and is respectful I don't see why people dogpile for disagreeing. He was called "asshat, tovarich, and awful person" in the past couple of pages. There is no need for this.

He is. We are entitled as well. People will animate negatively when there seems to be agreement - direct or indirect - that Ukraine doesn't deserve the full abilities to defend itself. We've seen the images and the videos - it's rarely this black and white. Losing here is not an option, and rarely does the US do the right thing but even they are getting this one right. A rare moment of pride, honestly.

And I can't wait to see what the EU has cooking up, cause certainly they won't let the US have all the fun (and when Russia is booted, turn Ukraine into a US-centric state versus EU-centric - she's the prettiest girl at the ball).

 

[akimbo009]

Moldau, Republik: Reise- und Sicherheitshinweise

Letzte Änderungen:Aktuelles – EnergieversorgungRedaktionelle Änderungen

www.auswaertiges-amt.de

Looks like Transnistria is going into lock down, and Germany and others are warning of travel there. Possible those Soviet cosplayers are about to align with Russia fully.

 

[akimbo009]

Russia struck Kyiv. 2 explosions, rocket attacks. All while the UN SG was there... Some reckless shit.

 

[Lord Panda]

Russia struck Kyiv. 2 explosions, rocket attacks. All while the UN SG was there... Some reckless shit.

That’s incredibly stupid and reckless, holy shit.



I reckon that’s money well spent so far.

 

[FunkMiller]

If people are confused then that's on them. Maybe they should focus on what I was saying instead of who they think I am defending.

He is entitled to his opinion and as long as it's on topic and is respectful I don't see why people dogpile for disagreeing. He was called "asshat, tovarich, and awful person" in the past couple of pages. There is no need for this.

If you mean the guy I called tovarisch (nobody’s called Deepbreath that)… He compared the United States directly to the Nazis. For all of America’s many faults, that is a gross and disgusting comparison to make. He’s lucky he only got called those things, frankly.

 

[Kraz]

Wow, yeah. 33B.

Biden asks Congress for $33 billion to support Ukraine through September

President Joe Biden has asked Congress for $33 billion to fund both humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine through September of this year.

www.cnbc.com

"
WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will ask Congress for $33 billion to fund both humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine through September of this year, senior administration officials said Thursday.

The massive aid package will be accompanied by a proposal to Congress that it amend several longstanding criminal laws to make it easier for the U.S. to seize the assets of sanctioned Russian oligarchs, sell the seized property and funnel the proceeds to the Ukrainians.

The $33 billion includes a request for $20.4 billion in additional security and military assistance for Ukraine as well as additional money to fund U.S. efforts to bolster European security in cooperation with NATO allies.

“It’s not cheap. But caving to aggression is going to be more costly if we allow it to happen,” Biden said Thursday.

The administration said this is intended to equip Kyiv and European partners with additional artillery, armored vehicles and anti-armor and anti-air capabilities, accelerate cyber capabilities and advanced air defense systems, and help clear landmines and improvised explosive devices.

In a letter accompanying his request to Congress, Biden warned lawmakers that the cost of failing to check Russian President Vladimir Putin would be far greater than the current policy proposal.

“Though we expect our NATO allies and EU partners will be making even larger collective contributions than the United States, there is no doubt that continuing to support Ukraine in this war against Russian aggression will require a substantial additional investment on our part,” the president wrote.

“What I want to make clear to the Congress and the American people is this: the cost of failing to stand up to violent aggression in Europe has always been higher than the cost of standing firm against such attacks,” Biden added.
"

Now that's doing it right and making a statement against Russian threats.

It's amazing that this is less than what was paid for twitter and the benefit this will have.

Seizing Russian assets should sure help with bringing that expense down if they're applied that way. Especially as more Putin investments are discovered.

I think it’s cute to pretend not to understand that Ukraine is notoriously one of the most corrupt countries in Europe and that reputation is well earned. But sure, let’s give them billions of dollars free and clear because they’re fighting Russia, so who cares, right? It’s just a few billion after all.

They don’t even try to make sense of some of the obvious contradictions, like the US government funding “independent media” which would sort of make it not exactly “independent” would it?

But who cares about that? It’s probably just a few million and who cares if a few million of the tens of billions gets skimmed off the top going into who-know’s pocket. It’s a small price to pay to fight Russia in the 2 eastern most provinces of Ukraine. The whole world depends on it. And if that means we have to funnel insane numbers of dollars to a notoriously corrupt country with no strings attached, we should do it without even questioning because anything less makes you a Putin apologist.

It’s enough alone to give Ukraine the 11th largest ANNUAL military budget on the planet and to be spent over less than half a year. All to a country notorious for corruption and fraud. All with little to no oversight. During record inflation and emerging economic stagnation in the US.

Forgive me if I think it’s a bit presumptuous to give Ukraine that kind of money. Not to mention, the idea that “independent media” is a part of this is a farce. Nothing says independent like direct funding from the US government.

I think it’s completely fair to question whether this level of investment is advisable or necessary.

I know right? Why can’t I just blindly go along with giving $33 billion to a country with a clear pattern of corrupt behavior? Why should it matter whether half the money gets stolen as long as some of it does something good? I’ll try to be a better cheerleader next time.

Maybe it should be $330 billion instead because I care 10x as much as you do!

But no. You’re right. Why shouldn’t I just assume that the US government is being responsible? They’ve never been wasteful on an astronomical scale before, right? And why would I question the Ukrainian government? They’ve never been anything but honest and trustworthy.

How dare I wonder how much of that $33 billion actually makes a meaningful difference on the ground after it’s filtered through all the greedy, outstretched hands waiting to take their piece? I’m sure at least half of it will go to something good. And if 16 billion makes it to where it belongs, I’ll consider it a success and a small price to pay for a clean conscience. I’m sure our government has priced in the corruption already anyway.

And there it is. How is this relevant to what he said? What he said isn’t even controversial. It’s a fact. The US has had a bad habit of supplying weapons that end up in the hands of the people the US military ends up fighting themselves down the line. That’s not some foreign disinformation bullshit. That’s historical fact.


So no, the two eastern most provinces in Ukraine are not an existential threat to the western world. Russia has clearly demonstrated they have no ability to project power on the kind of scale you’re talking about. They couldn’t take a moderately sized country on their own border and have lost thousands of troops and pieces of equipment only to be relegated to trying to squeeze out a consolation prize in the form of two provinces they already effectively controlled to begin with.

Now a lot of that has to do with the aid they have been provided, and I support aiding them. But the idea that this has been “carefully thought through”? I know you’re not American, so it can be forgiven that you don’t know this, but our government doesn’t operate that way.

What they do is budget outrageous sums of money and just shovel it out the door. That’s why the government itself estimates that 10% of the $800 billion dollar paycheck protection program during covid was given out to fraudulent actors. They estimate that $90-$400 billion of the unemployment relief was fraudulent during covid as well.

So I guess, if we’re just fucking giving money to every crook and scumbag on earth, there are certainly worse ways we could do it than trying to also help Ukraine. But I am extremely tired of watching our country be looted out from under us because the people in charge don’t give a shit about being responsible. So do I trust the Ukrainians? You guys act like unscrupulous people don’t take advantage of war to their own ends. And Ukraine has a well documented history of corruption. So I don’t exactly expect anything different now.

I doubt it will be a small percentage. The guy below you doesn’t care if 75% of the money gets stolen. That’s where we are now as a country. So desensitized to corruption that people don’t care if $24 billion gets stolen if it makes us feel like we did something good. Of course we could fund things more slowly and at least pretend we are keeping track of the money, but if a politician convinces us that the larger the number, the more you care, people just line up to be swindled. All in the name of feeling good. Sad to see.

I don't think anyone was even upset or against the aid. Just pointed out some questionable things about the specifics of the way it was handled. Up to now there's been cooperation between different nations and meetings to get smaller aid packages approved as the conflict went on, with all the money seemingly going to the right places.

This one has a few weird new items we haven't funded before like part of the aid going to counter Russian propaganda and funding local media. In addition, part of the package was basically food but instead of us sending the aid ourselves, cash is being entrusted to Ukraine's energy department to spend over the next few months. Given history of corruption on both sides it's okay to ask questions and have a discussion especially when the money is coming out of the person's taxes.

The US spearheads a lot of the aid that goes out to the world. Most recently during Covid and this conflict but at the same time a lot of our local problems are getting worse and we are told that there are no funds. While we want to help as much as possible we also want the government to be responsible with the funds.


Historically corruption thrives during war times. When others were suffering is when scumbags stole or benefitted the most. It's an unfortunate reality of the world.

Anyway I am done participating in this for today lest it gets into name calling again.

You repeat yourself a lot.
"Notorious" and "corrupt."
Where are you getting those words from that you have to repeat them over and over like they're bouncing around in your head like the only balls dropped in a lotto machine that you spit out.

Wow. Jesus Christ.

That's... quite the position to take.

He claims to be antiRussia but whenever he posts it seems to be antiUkraine.

On this matter he didn't even consider the source of the corruption and how things might have changed until set straight. He immediately thought the worst of Ukrainians and there was no question in his mind.

When the war started he posted how Russia should learn from the mistakes the US in Iraq when taking over Ukraine. That the Russian military can't be beat. When the Russian paratroopers were killed he complained that people were cheering.

Probably hates that video.


Look how he goes off about the media for no reason. This user is irrational and appears to have an agenda.

Watch how he plays the hero who knows the real truth, that asks the real questions the rest of the world is too stupid to consider, against the victim defense mechanism when questioned. It's funny.

 

[Artoris]

Welcome to Red Alert 2!

Except it was the Americans who had he dolphins Russians, if I can remember, had squid

 

[darth.shrimp]

Except it was the Americans who had he dolphins Russians, if I can remember, had squid

Mind-controlled squids, courtesy of Yuri.

 

[Loope]

You have cognitive dissonance if you think your tax dollars were well spent killing a million Iraqi citizens.

And crazy if you don’t think the US is capable of repeating what the Nazis did.

Your US government is disarming citizens just like the Nazis yet you are worried about a country half a globe away.

Disarming citizens?What the hell are you on about? You think citizens should be armed like an army? Where did Hitler disarmed citizens, were people (especially Jewish people - his main target) allowed to carry guns in 1930's Germany?

If they were armed, would they stop the war machine that took over most of Europe in a swift attack?

Some of you have completely lost the plot.

 

[Kraz]

Some of you have completely lost the plot.

I'm wondering what new podcasts/youtube/tv shows were on last night.

 

[Wildebeest]

I don't think you guys understand what Russia and China thinking that it is a total blast to start a new "cold war" means to the US military budget. It could easily double or triple, going up by even a trillion dollars a year or so. You think 33 billion is painful? That is, if you only care about the potential taxes and don't care about the genocides and mass starvations and riots in poorer countries.

 

[Artoris]

Disarming citizens?What the hell are you on about? You think citizens should be armed like an army? Where did Hitler disarmed citizens, were people (especially Jewish people - his main target) allowed to carry guns in 1930's Germany?

If they were armed, would they stop the war machine that took over most of Europe in a swift attack?

Some of you have completely lost the plot.

Armed citizens could never compete with the regular army

 

[RJMacready73]

Definitely some utter muppets posting in here, your bank accounts must be swelling with roubles with the shite youse are spewing..

33Bil is chump change to the US Military, the vast majority of that money will be getting plowed back into the American economy, you know the way the Chinese lend money to Africa to build bridges... who does Africa use to design those bridges and build them? and from a geopolitical point of view, the US is getting to severely weaken the Russian sphere of influence and knock it completely off the table, leaving just the Chinese to contend with and not a joint enemy, not to mention the US is actually doing fucking good for once with all their bombs and tech, maybe remove the Putin blinkers and you'll see that the world is better place with that cunt slapped into place and is a small price to pay

 

[Von Hugh]

Can't even imagine if my country's TV stations would broadcast stuff like that, discussing about how long it takes for a nuke to reach certain other countries. Absolutely fucking mental.

 

[Artoris]

Can't even imagine if my country's TV stations would broadcast stuff like that, discussing about how long it takes for a nuke to reach certain other countries. Absolutely fucking mental.

I don't think there are nuclear weapons in Kaliningrad though

 

[Kraz]

Armed citizens could never compete with the regular army

To be sure there's a big difference. Professional soldiers are conditioned, sorted and trained full time. It's part of what makes the Ukrainians so amazing in how they picked up, passed on and honed Western professional military standards in less than a decade. They're still largely conscripts. If NATO professional soldiers were in there, and the war stayed conventional, and they decided to invade, there would be 40 nations of flags flying peacefully in Moscow by summer.

The American's have their history with the Second Amendment and a "well regulated Militia" for defense. US aren't being disarmed, it sounds like the foreign poster before the one quoted was having an overreaction to some real or imagined legislation from the US.

So this is how they boost morale?

'Sisters for Victory' don nurses' outfits with Russian 'Z' emblem

Russian social media influencers and models posed by tanks dressed in nurses' uniforms and donning the Z sign in a crude effort to boost war propaganda in snaps for Instagram.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Z has to get scribbled on everything or they would have run them over with the tank.

Can't even imagine if my country's TV stations would broadcast stuff like that, discussing about how long it takes for a nuke to reach certain other countries. Absolutely fucking mental.

They're so confused and lost that they think this helps their cause rather than the reality that this makes them a higher priority to destroy. Even by their own citizens.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Can't even imagine if my country's TV stations would broadcast stuff like that, discussing about how long it takes for a nuke to reach certain other countries. Absolutely fucking mental.

These Rooskies do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time fantasizing about wiping out the UK.

..anyone would think we've got right under their skin

 

[Wildebeest]

So this is how they boost morale?

Just in case anyone doesn't get the "irony", the red cross is a symbol of protection under the Geneva convention. Russian Federation fascists withdrew from parts of the Geneva convention because it isn't a war crime if you don't recognize the law. Then, since it was the Soviet Union who signed them up in the first place, they could just argue they never signed up to the Geneva convention. I hardly need to say that this stunt makes a total mockery of the Geneva convention protection as some "cosplay" and making its workers, who should be protected by both sides in a conflict, appear militarized and partisan.