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[Karlinel]

Realpolitik doesn't care about feelings though. I'm just talking in terms of raw loss of life statistics and economic disruption. Emotional foreign policy almost always makes these figures higher.

Realpolitik with someone who wants you gone is like trying to box with an armed dude. Sure, you can try but you know how it will end.

Surrendering day 1 would have accomplished an emboldened Russia controlling over 25% of wheat’s exports, more gas, more oil…surely you see what’d be next, and rhymes with sovietonia.

 

[FunkMiller]

There's mostly consensus around here (I'm from Germany) that our Russia policy was rather stupid in the past. But no, we don't want to tank our economy even further. Inflation is already smothering the poorer half of the country.

But frankly, you should be prepared to damage your economy further, because it would arrest Russia' progress, and it is your country's fault that you are so dependent on Russia.

And double frankly, I'm surprised more Germans aren't prepared to make these sacrifices, given your nation's history, and the parallels with what the Russians are doing now.

 

[FunkMiller]

Realpolitik doesn't care about feelings though. I'm just talking in terms of raw loss of life statistics and economic disruption. Emotional foreign policy almost always makes these figures higher.

If Ukraine had rolled over, Russia would be conducting a campaign of genocide to rival the Nazis. And I know this because that's what they tried to do in Bucha, and so many other Ukrainian towns.

How exactly do you justify the notion of immediate surrender, unless you want a Russian victory?

 

[Decontamination Silo]

If Ukraine had rolled over, Russia would be conducting a campaign of genocide to rival the Nazis. And I know this because that's what they tried to do in Bucha, and so many other Ukrainian towns.

How exactly do you justify the notion of immediate surrender, unless you want a Russian victory?

I don't believe there would be an open genocide against Ukrainian people in this scenario. I believe you would have seen carpet bombings of cities from day 1 if that was the case. Do you think Russia doesn't posses the arsenal to commit such atrocities if that was their goal?

My interests are my own. The differences of liberties between a citizen in Moscow vs a citizen in Kharkov are not worth all these lives lost and economic destruction. You're entitled to your own position. My initial post was just noting the clear path that existed to lessen loss of lives and economic disruption.

 

[Karlinel]

I don't believe there would be an open genocide against Ukrainian people in this scenario. I believe you would have seen carpet bombings of cities from day 1 if that was the case. Do you think Russia doesn't posses the arsenal to commit such atrocities if that was their goal?

My interests are my own. The differences of liberty between a citizen in Moscow vs a citizen in Kharkov are not worth all these lives lost and economic destruction. You're entitled to your own position. My initial post was just noting the clear path that existed to lessen loss of lives and economic disruption.

I would say that a russian retreat would save many more lives…

 

[Decontamination Silo]

I would say that a russian retreat would save many more lives…

Again we find ourselves butting heads with Realpolitik. We try our best to short circuit it as humans, but might makes right is still the order of the day for all living creatures.

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't believe there would be an open genocide against Ukrainian people in this scenario. I believe you would have seen carpet bombings of cities from day 1 if that was the case. Do you think Russia doesn't posses the arsenal to commit such atrocities if that was their goal?

My interests are my own. The differences of liberty between a citizen in Moscow vs a citizen in Kharkov are not worth all these lives lost and economic destruction. You're entitled to your own position. My initial post was just noting the clear path that existed to lessen loss of lives and economic disruption.

Despite all the evidence showing that they have done, and would do, exactly that.

The differences of liberty being that one of those two people is not under threat of rape, torture, mutilation, execution, and body destruction to hide evidence.

Your entire opinion comes from a position of 'Russia wouldn't be so nasty if the Ukrainians had just given up' and it speaks volumes about your thinly veiled loyalties.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Despite all the evidence showing that they have done, and would do, exactly that.

The differences of liberty being that one of those two people is not under threat of rape, torture, mutilation, execution, and body destruction to hide evidence.

Your entire opinion comes from a position of 'Russia wouldn't be so nasty if the Ukrainians had just given up' and it speaks volumes about your thinly veiled loyalties.

What about the evidence of cities still standing in places where skirmishes haven't happened? Ukraine has no chance of winning this war. Russia has shown they're willing to fight to the last man. NATO and her allies are not in an economic position to help without destroying the prosperity of their people. Sure I wish none of this ever happened. My loyalties lay with my family first, and then to the innocent bystanders in Ukraine. I truly believe their chances of survival are higher if they're not goaded into fighting back.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

But frankly, you should be prepared to damage your economy further, because it would arrest Russia' progress, and it is your country's fault that you are so dependent on Russia.

No, I don't think we will.

And double frankly, I'm surprised more Germans aren't prepared to make these sacrifices, given your nation's history, and the parallels with what the Russians are doing now.

Aside from a handful of super old nazis, nobody currently living in Germany has been responsible for what happened back then. Weird point to bring up.

 

[zeomax]

But frankly, you should be prepared to damage your economy further, because it would arrest Russia' progress

Wtf? I already asked you this. Do you really think Germany is the only reason why this war is still going? You acting like it is completely Germanys fault why Russia is invading and now it is Germanys duty to cripple their economy to save Ukraine cus Russia has no other income besides Germany.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Wtf? I already asked you this. Do you really think Germany is the only reason why this war is still going? You acting like it is completely Germanys fault why Russia is invading and now it is Germanys duty to cripple their economy to save Ukraine cus Russia has no other income besides Germany.

Even worse, it assumes that would be a surefire silver bullet.

 

[FunkMiller]

Wtf? I already asked you this. Do you really think Germany is the only reason why this war is still going? You acting like it is completely Germanys fault why Russia is invading and now it is Germanys duty to cripple their economy to save Ukraine cus Russia has no other income besides Germany.

No. Of course it's not the only reason. But it is an important one. And while Germany does not single handedly prop up the Russian war machine, it does contribute a great deal to it. Enough for Putin to think twice if that support was removed. Also, where Germany tends to lead in the EU, others follow. The EU funds 50% of the Kremlin operation. You think having his funds halved wouldn't stop Putin? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russia-makes-billions-selling-oil-and-gas-to-germany-zt70n5p8q

Again, you're wildly over exaggerating to avoid a sensible discussion around the topic. I've quoted from the Bundesbank that Germany would go into a recession. It wouldn't destroy the country, or lead to people freezing in their homes. It's a viable strategy. But I guess not one that Germans do not want to entertain, because it'll make them poorer.

 

[FunkMiller]

No, I don't think we will.

Fair play. At least you're honest about it.

 

[TwinB242]

Interesting how the least helpful leaders in the EU decide to take a trip as a group. Wouldn't even be surprised if it was a collective effort to convince Zelensky to surrender.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

If germany distrusted putin or was aware of its dangers, they'd build gas reservoirs and store 3 years worth of reserves.

Instead gazprom managed the reservoirs, which they kept empty.

Doing the latter instead of the former is a clear sign they're all in on Putin and Russia.

 

[TwinB242]

Jesus. These kind of numbers aren't sustainable for any modern army. I can only hope that Russian casualties are similar if not worse

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Jesus. These kind of numbers aren't sustainable for any modern army. I can only hope that Russian casualties are similar if not worse

Fffffffuuuuuuuucckkkkk

 

[FunkMiller]

Jesus. These kind of numbers aren't sustainable for any modern army. I can only hope that Russian casualties are similar if not worse

 

[Karlinel]

The animals are gonna take over Ukraine, I wonder if we will DO anything once they decide they like Poland as well…

 

[TwinB242]

You know you fucked up when even the Taliban won't support you

 

[M1chl]

You know you fucked up when even the Taliban won't support you

When leaders of Taliban have more sense than some EU leaders. Dark times.

 

[sinnergy]

The animals are gonna take over Ukraine, I wonder if we will DO anything once they decide they like Poland as well…

World wars normally start after this .. the 1st and the second also did .. and seeing how history seems to keep repeating .. who knows, maybe not now , but in a couple of years .

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Would be a short World War considering whichever side China chooses wins almost immediately. The US economy grinds to a halt the moment they stop sending containers.

 

[Karlinel]

Would be a short World War considering whichever side China chooses wins almost immediately. The US economy grinds to a halt the moment they stop sending containers.

Russia against NATO? Yeah, a couple weeks or months, depending the amount of punishment those bastards accept. China? It’s not like they have tested forces, tech edge, extreme wealth or friends…

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Russia against NATO? Yeah, a couple weeks or months, depending the amount of punishment those bastards accept. China? It’s not like they have tested forces, tech edge, extreme wealth or friends…

Our supply chain crumbles in all aspects without China. Food, medicine, lord know how many parts needed for a continued military operation etc. Even if we “win”, we won’t be having a very enjoyable existence rebuilding our economy. I also think think there would be a non zero number of EU countries and ME countries who would side with China for their own economic survival.

They might not even have to engage in combat if they just turn off the faucet of goods. We know they’re willing to sacrifice the lives and comfort of large amounts of their population.

My choice would be doing all we can do avoid this conflict and tripling down on getting our industry back. Seeing just how close we are to the void.

 

[Tams]

In short term yes it was the wrong decision. But in long term it is the right way to transit to reneweble energy. Like previously said the decision was not made for the current generation but for the next.

Bollocks. Nuclear energy is essential for the transition.

Yes, eventually there is enough renewable capacity and the resources to build and maintain the infrastructure to capture it, but we as a global society are nowhere near ready to do that alone. Especially when you take NIMBYism into account.

Germany poo-pooed nuclear energy partly because of an overreaction to Fukushima, but also as a compromise to the Greens who naïvely and stupidly think nuclear energy is the devil.

So they decided to get into bed with Putin.

 

[Tams]

Its not that easy. You can say that now in hindsight, but for Germany piece on the continent was worth really trying it - it worked with the EU, the close ties of these countries lead to a war free time unheard of in recorded EU history.
Everybody knew Russia is difficult, but hey Germany is "friends" with the US and the US has pulled equally bad stuff in Afghanistan, Iran, Irak etc. Continental powers will always do powerplays. At some point you have to decide on what team you want to be on, Germany did that this year and is correcting its strategy.



Thanks to Russia they will (faster). Germany has signed the Paris agreement for CO2 neutrality by 2050, so coal would have gone ways anyways. Its going to happen sooner now.

Edit:
In 2013-17(?) Germany was leading the race to renewables, have been a solar powerhouse - until Merkel killed the Industry, reverted to Coal and basically fucked Germany some decades back.
Go look at TED talks from that timeframe, Germany is being portrayed as the shining example of renewables. How quick this can all change...

The US did not do 'equally' bad stuff. That's just insane.

Whereas Russia have a very long, continuous history of atrocities. Hell, just Putin does.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

The US did not do 'equally' bad stuff. That's just insane.

Whereas Russia have a very long, continuous history of atrocities. Hell, just Putin does.

Over 1 million dead Iraqi's and a land littered with depleted uranium?

 

[Tams]

Not damaged - fucked, taken over, sold to the Chinese. What do you think would happen in Germany then? That's right, a populist party would get in power, EU would be dissolved and Russia would have achieved all they ever wanted (as it turns out). For EU safety (including Ukraine), its imo of utter importance that Germany stays relevant/strong and a democracy.

Without Russian gas/oil Germany is fucked, you can't just turn that off within even a couple of months. Nearly half the energy would be gone. I hate that it came to this, but its the cold reality. Offsetting this takes time, it will happen - but its a fairy dream that's Germany could even think about straight ups cutting tries...

Lol, there's no chance the Chinese would be allowed to buy up anything.

 

[funkygunther]

Over 1 million dead Iraqi's and a land littered with depleted uranium?

Iraq should have surrendered day 1

 

[delirium trigger]

Even worse, it assumes that would be a surefire silver bullet.

It's ridiculous. We're always one more "sanction" away from it being over. It ain't ending anytime soon.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Iraq should have surrendered day 1

Is this even in question? Who did the war protect outside of the Hussein government?

 

[FunkMiller]

Is this even in question? Who did the war protect outside of the Hussein government?

He's fucking nailed you to the spot by outlining your massive hypocrisy in six words. Take that shit like a man.

 

[Tams]

I don't believe there would be an open genocide against Ukrainian people in this scenario. I believe you would have seen carpet bombings of cities from day 1 if that was the case. Do you think Russia doesn't posses the arsenal to commit such atrocities if that was their goal?

My interests are my own. The differences of liberties between a citizen in Moscow vs a citizen in Kharkov are not worth all these lives lost and economic destruction. You're entitled to your own position. My initial post was just noting the clear path that existed to lessen loss of lives and economic disruption.

Oh, and in that scenario, you think that many Ukrainians would be fine with another country just coming in and changing their democratically elected government? That the new puppet government wouldn't be deeply unpopular and require Russian forces (oh look,.Russian militarised police were some odlf the first in) to quell resistance?

And then, if Ukraine did acquiescence, that there wouldn't be the very real risk of Russia deciding they fancy another Soviet country?

 

[Decontamination Silo]

He's fucking nailed you to the spot by outlining your massive hypocrisy in six words. Take that shit like a man.

It's the exact same scenario. Both would be better served not throwing men into a meat grinder they have no hopes of winning. Is this the future you want for Ukraine?

 

[Tams]

Over 1 million dead Iraqi's and a land littered with depleted uranium?

Show me where, in recent history, the US has done anything like Grovny or Mariupol?

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Oh, and in that scenario, you think that many Ukrainians would be fine with another country just coming in and changing their democratically elected government? That the new puppet government wouldn't be deeply unpopular and require Russian forces (oh look,.Russian militarised police were some odlf the first in) to quell resistance?

And then, if Ukraine did acquiescence, that there wouldn't be the very real risk of Russia deciding they fancy another Soviet country?

There's literally nothing we can do to stop them without either getting China 100% on our side (which won't happen without outright conceding Taiwan) or dealing ourselves (NATO countries) an economic blow that leads to slow-ish death.

If we're just wishing for stuff I'd like $500 Rolex GMTs.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's the exact same scenario. Both would be better served not throwing men into a meat grinder they have no hopes of winning. Is this the future you want for Ukraine?

And this is where we all know your Tankie credentials.

This is always.... always... the clarion call of the pro-Russian stooge. And anyone who says it hasn't done any actual research into the circumstances of the Iraq war, beyond the social media posts of the fellow tankies. The two scenarios are vastly different genius... but I doubt any words on my part will persuade you of that.

You'll be following the rest who have tried to post that horseshit here very soon.

 

[Artoris]

It's the exact same scenario. Both would be better served not throwing men into a meat grinder they have no hopes of winning. Is this the future you want for Ukraine?

Ukraine has hope, Iraq did not

 

[Tams]

There's literally nothing we can do to stop them without either getting China 100% on our side (which won't happen without outright conceding Taiwan) or dealing ourselves (NATO countries) an economic blow that leads to slow-ish death.

If we're just wishing for stuff I'd like $500 Rolex GMTs.

Oh the irony. Your approach is what will see the democratic world at first slide into irrelevance, and then suddenly collapse.

Thankfully, many in the democratic world, including our leaders, aren't nearly as stupid and resigned to one's fate as you.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Show me where, in recent history, the US has done anything like Grovny or Mariupol?

Abu Gharib ring a bell? 40,000 civilians in Mosul? White phosphorus? George W Bush is limited in travel because of this. Anyone not suckling on the teet of American media knows that war finished what was started in Vietnam; the complete eradication of our ability to be a moral arbiter on the global stage.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

Oh the irony. Your approach is what will see the democratic world at first slide into irrelevance, and then suddenly collapse.

Thankfully, many in the democratic world, including our leaders, aren't nearly as stupid and resigned to one's fate as you.

The democratic world has been outplayed by the East. If that's not clear by now the copium must be too strong. Resigned to fate? Yes. But I think it would be stupid to think we can still win in our current configuration. Every time you experience the joy of unwrapping a new Funko Pop it's only because China has decided to not yet cut you off. Direct your anger at the people here at home who sold us out for personal gain.

 

[HoodWinked]

Another comical thing about Germany is that they have the largest vehicle in the world which is for mining coal. But it's worst form of coal Lignite which yields less energy for more CO2 and Sulfur. They kept this thing running while shutting down the nuclear power plants. They're also planning to decommissioning these but apparently are reversing course amid the energy turmoil.

 

[Batiman]

Another comical thing about Germany is that they have the largest vehicle in the world which is for mining coal. But it's worst form of coal Lignite which yields less energy for more CO2 and Sulfur. They kept this thing running while shutting down the nuclear power plants. They're also planning to decommissioning these but apparently are reversing course amid the energy turmoil.

That is fuckin massive. Looks like a starfield screenshot. Unreal

 

[Tams]

Abu Gharib ring a bell? 40,000 civilians in Mosul? White phosphorus? George W Bush is limited in travel because of this. Anyone not suckling on the teet of American media knows that war finished what was started in Vietnam; the complete eradication of our ability to be a moral arbiter on the global stage.

You either put those facts out there is ignorance or to try and muddy the water.

Look, nowhere did I say I was excusing US (and allies) fuckups. But they are in no way as bad as what Russia has and are doing. If you think they are, then at least fuck off from here. We don't need your dilge.

And while people who mindlessly by their Funko Pops/etc. don't help (and I bet you enjoy something similar, also mindlessly), it's defeatists like you that ultimately will be out downfall if you ever gain power. Let's hope that day never comes.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

You either put those facts out there is ignorance or to try and muddy the water.

Look, nowhere did I say I was excusing US (and allies) fuckups. But they are in no way as bad as what Russia has and are doing. If you think they are, then at least fuck off from here. We don't need your dilge.

And while people who mindlessly by their Funko Pops/etc. don't help (and I bet you enjoy something similar, also mindlessly), it's defeatists like you that ultimately will be out downfall if you ever gain power. Let's hope that day never comes.

Are we just circle jerking in here or is it ok to weight the risk vs reward of actions taken by our governments? I'm just trying to find the path of least suffering. Even if concessions have to be made.

 

[Sakura]

It's the exact same scenario. Both would be better served not throwing men into a meat grinder they have no hopes of winning. Is this the future you want for Ukraine?

It's not really that simple. If countries just surrendered as soon as war was declared, in order to save as many lives as possible, then what would stop every country from invading every other country?
And even if Ukraine cannot win against Russia, there is a big difference between a defeat that cedes some territory to Russia, and a defeat that cedes everything to Russia.

 

[MrA]

Are we just circle jerking in here or is it ok to weight the risk vs reward of actions taken by our governments? I'm just trying to find the path of least suffering. Even if concessions have to be made.

 

[Decontamination Silo]

It's not really that simple. If countries just surrendered as soon as war was declared, in order to save as many lives as possible, then what would stop every country from invading every other country?
And even if Ukraine cannot win against Russia, there is a big difference between a defeat that cedes some territory to Russia, and a defeat that cedes everything to Russia.

Not every scenario, just ones like little Ukraine vs big Russia. They could have negotiated Donetsk and Donbass being independent and official recognition of Crimea when this thing started. It was even propositioned IIRC. After all the fighting though, I don't think they'll be satisfied with only that. The longer this thing goes on, the more emboldened they become. Ask Kissinger.

 

[Tams]

Are we just circle jerking in here or is it ok to weight the risk vs reward of actions taken by our governments? I'm just trying to find the path of least suffering. Even if concessions have to be made.

So now you think you've found the solution to end wars, eh? Because that seems to be what you are implying (intentionally or not).

If we extended your little theory there, any country threatened with invasion should just surrender immediately. So where does that lead us to? Well, at first large countries governed by strongmen just taking over everywhere, then fighting amongst themselves, and eventually an ever changing, brutal world where strongmen takeover until they die in some way.

Wait... that sounds awfully familiar... like... our history as species before we built a rules-based international system backed by massive amounts of weaponry...