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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale

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Drek

Member
There is though. That statement is "None of these candidates have earned my vote".

A statement made inside your own mind and heard by no one. That's effective.

I swear it seems like for every 1 Bernie supporter I see who says they won't vote for Hillary I see 10 posts by Hillary supporters shaming them. Get over it. She's not entitled to anyone's vote.
Of course not, but you're entitled to your right to vote in all of the various elections that have a substantial impact on your day to day life (state and local matters far more than federal on this front) and while you're at it I'd argue that Trump's platform is entitled to a pretty strong "NOPE" vote, a response that is only heard if it is cast for the opposing party anyone actually pays attention to.

The presumption in political circles is that you could put up anyone with an (R) and a (D) after their names and between them they'll each get about 45% of the vote at a minimum. The remaining 10% is the flux that decides who wins. Voting Clinton and landsliding Trump is a step towards shattering that dellusion, a delusion at the very heart of why politicians feel it is in their best interest to work for rich donors over their actual constituency.

A strong non-partisan repudiation of Trump is the single best thing any of us can do in the general election to push against the establishment politics status quo.

Some of us Bernie supporters have been playing the game for 20+ years. I've been playing it long enough to know that Bernie is a once in a lifetime candidate and that Bernie 2.0 is probably at least another 20-30 years away. It's not so much about anti-establishment or "change" - it's about having a voice in the White House that speaks and fights for the average working person.

IMO, the best chance to get Bernie 2.0 any time soon (i.e. not 20-30 years from now) is to get Bernie 1.0 in the White House.
If you've been playing the game for 20+ years I'd think you would have some recollection of candidates who proceeded Sanders. He isn't some magical snowflake.

Barack Obama was a step to the left for the DNC at the time he won the nomination and his appeal is largely what let candidates like Elizabeth Warren get mainstream party acceptance. Howard Dean was a serious candidate in 2004 and ran well to the left of the establishment. He ended up as the DNC chairman not long after and got to effect some legitimate change in the party platform. Bill Bradley ran on almost the exact same platform as Sanders in 2000 against Gore, though obviously with little success. Gary Hart was a reform candidate and had a lot of momentum in '88 until his personal drama brought him down.

At the same time there was a strong, united GOP throughout the 80's to contend with so the Dems were playing to the middle in an attempt to stop losing elections, that's just the nature of politics. When the right keeps winning everyone is forced to move right. Just like how if Clinton wins we'll see everyone forced to move left following a second left leaning POTUS.

If you go back before the Reagan era you had McGovern, every bit as left as Sanders and 40 years sooner, as the party's nominee in '72. Carter ran against a host of far more liberal candidates in '76 but beat them because the primary system had finally taken more importance then the party bosses and Carter used that to rack up delegates while the more liberal candidates languished.

The reality is that the next Democratic Primary will likely see a broad swath of candidates, every single one to the left of Clinton, and without the gravitas that Clinton has it will be something of a free for all.

I'll support Clinton if she gets the nomination but I won't cry if/when she loses. I think she is a deeply flawed candidate.
What candidate isn't? Obama is the "best" candidate we've had in generations and he is frequently derided for being too pragmatic and a centrist when serving in an office that literally demands a pragmatic centrist.

What's probably going to happen is she will win and in 8 years it will be Castro running saying he will continue the same policies as Obama/Hillary and you will see the same people come out and trot the same arguments about electability and the supreme court.
That all depends on how down ballot elections, the mid-terms, etc. turn out. Your vote gains more and more power the further down the ballot you get (as it gets more local) and that is where metrics are really shifted. The GOP hasn't made this insane leap to the right out of nowhere. They've done it at the behest of the Tea Party, who have been taking over local offices and State Houses across the country. Rock the vote locally and the national ticket will follow.

Also, I'm betting come 2024 we'll see a currently completely unknown candidate step forward with a strident, charismatic message that will dominate the Democratic Primary from an ideological standpoint, sweeping the party up into an Obama-like fervor. The real question is where the nation stands at that point and if such a candidate can translate that momentum into moderate appeal.
 
ITT: Both Parties Are The Same.

God, I wish that sort of shit would go away forever. The level of misinformation, apathy, and outright stupidity out there never ceases to amaze me. If you think that Hillary is in any way on the same level as Trump, I don't even know what to fucking tell you. Maybe try and get your head out of your ass before you suffocate.

inb4 "oh, look at the self-superior Hillary supporter, get off your high horse." I'm not self superior, I'm just the regular sort. If you really decide that your best bet is to either not vote or throw your vote behind a third party because you really, REALLY think that there's nothing to choose between Hillary and Trump, you have demonstrated such a lack of critical thinking and empathy that it really does make me better than you. Full stop.

Start subscribing. It's the truth. That's how it WORKS in a 2 party system. A vote for one candidate is a vote against the other. A lack of a vote for one candidate is a vote for the other. That's just how the fucking math works.

You really believe this? That you're a "better" person because of who you vote for?

Edit:

Meh, forget it. Just saw the rest of your posts in this thread - "total fucking sociopath", "moronic jackasses" etc
 

grumble

Member
I have one question: what makes Hillary Clinton so bad? I know that the republicans have painted her as the antichrist but I actually don't get it. What is the huge issue with her? Honestly asking.

I also have a comment to all the non voters. Not voting IS a vote. It's a vote for the candidate that the people who participate choose. The ONLY reason you wouldn't vote is because the nominees are EXACTLY as desirable to you, where you are totally indifferent between say Hillary and trump.

I'm sure there are people who feel this way but they must be quite rare since the candidate's policies differ dramatically
 

Miles X

Member
I have one question: what makes Hillary Clinton so bad? I know that the republicans have painted her as the antichrist but I actually don't get it. What is the huge issue with her? Honestly asking.

I also have a comment to all the non voters. Not voting IS a vote. It's a vote for the candidate that the people who participate choose. The ONLY reason you wouldn't vote is because the nominees are EXACTLY as desirable to you, where you are totally indifferent between say Hillary and trump.

Benghazi!!!! Emails!!!!
 
This. I'm tired of certain people equating Hillary to Bill as if she's not a person and rather an extension of her husband. It's the sort of sexism that makes me reluctant to want to ally with certain people.

If we're not equating Bill with Hillary, can you explain why we would vote for her over Sanders? Her economic policy is an extension of Bill's -- her foreign policy, as well. Now, this could have something to do with the fact that they, as a married couple, both entwined within politics somewhere, bounced ideas back and forth to each other before Bill pushed policy, but that'd mean she WAS an extension of her husband(and her husband was an extension of he)r. Simply put, what reputation does Hillary have that Bill is not known for? This is an honest question because, for the life of me, I can't come up with much.
 
You really believe this? That you're a "better" person because of who you vote for?

I think I'm a better person than the average Trump supporter, yeah, what with the racism and the insanity. During the primary, I wouldn't begin to claim anything like that about Sanders supporters. That'd be nuts.

But during the general? If those Sanders supporters flip to Trump or stay home because Hillary "isn't left enough?"

Hell yeah, I'm absolutely a better human being than those people. I see no problem admitting it.

Well to be fair to some of them, if they believe, like Sanders, that racism can be solved in large part by economic inequality, then yeah the problem is Wall Street, and not the white power movement made mostly up of poor whites.

/shrug

Then they're just regular wrong. And myopic. And frankly still stupid, because Trump is literally the guys they hate the most but he's not working through a proxy any more, so Hillary is by default at least a little better.
 

collige

Banned
Because their only opposition is liberals who don't vote in midterms. Not that hard to win when the other side doesn't give a shit to vote and then complains bitterly about how the country has swung to the right.

Not true. They primaried establishment Republicans in more than a handful of states in 2010. See also: this presidential race where Cruz and Trump destroyed Rubio and Jeb.

Benghazi!!!! Emails!!!!

Why would you respond to someone asking a sincere question with a sarcastic strawman? Why not let the people he was addressing actually answer?
 

Slacker

Member
There's no point trying to figure out the unfigurable. I've seen people who support a flat tax and Bernie Sanders simultaneously. Someone here thinks Hillary is running for office to sell books. It's ridiculous.

Remember that you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
 

Cybrwzrd

Banned
Fooled... how?

She has spent her entire political career riding that thick roll of Wall St cash, becoming quite wealthy in the process. Her biggest accomplishment in office will be 4 years of doing nothing while taking credit for cultural and demographic shifts. She may half-heartedly push for impotent Wall St backed financial "regulations" and take credit for improvements in social justice. Those are bandaids and photo ops.

Mind you I have not been happy with Obama either since his biggest accomplishment was giving massive wheelbarrows full of cash to the private insurance industry - and I don't want a continuation of his center right policies - which is what we will get with Hillary.
 

TheOfficeMut

Unconfirmed Member
I guarantee you that there wouldn't be as much animosity between Bernie and Hillary supporters as there is right now if it was the two of them running against each other in the GE, assuming it was possible to bar a republican candidate and simply have a democrat versus an independent/green member. This is because the two so closely resemble each other on a majority of issues and don't spew hate for minorities, LGBTs, women, and so on and so forth, that conceding the POTUS to either or is certainly more tolerable in such a scenario than it is in the current one with Hillary vs Trump. That is not to say that Bernie supporters, first-and-foremost, wouldn't be upset, because where they really differ is on their stance regarding corporate funding and shilling, which is why so many feel alienated by Hillary, and that is understandable.

But realize that we - meaning Hillary supporters - are trying to *convince* you to not withhold your vote because in the GE there will be only one viable candidate that will further your ideals.

I brought up the example of Hillary vs Bernie in a GE because I want to demonstrate that both would be viable candidates for progressive ideals, assuming their stances remain the same, where arguably one is more progressive than the other (Bernie); however, such a scenario is not the reality of the current election.

I apologize on behalf of both fronts of Hillary and Bernie camps for trying to aggressively persuade the other into voting for their candidate. I, too, am guilty of having been aggressive before. While I am a Hillary supporter, I do support all of Bernie's ideals, so having either or in office is perfectly fine for me. I do understand if some of Hillary's issues are truly concerning for some of you, but I please ask that you also understand that these two camps share a LOT of the same ideals.

We are scrambling to convince many of you to support Hillary come GE because we want both her and Bernie's ideals to come to fruition. If the GE was between Hillary and Bernie, there would be little use for persuasion, seeing as both are viable. But we are facing Trump, and he is the antithesis to the ideals of both Bernie and Hillary.

Edit: Apologies if I couldn't get most of my thoughts down or clearly explained. Typing on a phone and in a rush out the door.
 
Oh, of course. I voted for Sanders here in Florida but there's no way I'm going to vote for Trump unless I legitimately see her unhinge her jaw and swallow a baby whole.

?.

Hillary_eats_baby.jpg


hillary-clinton-new-york.jpg
 

lednerg

Member
If Bernie voters need to be told about how he'll never win, then surely Hillary voters similarly discuss her hawkishness and support for the death penalty.
 
If Hillary doesn't win then the only people to blame are the Hillary voters who propped up an un-electable candidate.

She's far from unelectable.

Ideological purity is doing more to hurt her chances than anything. The all-or-nothing mentality hurts.

We've been insiders forever. And this new stream of populism is almost too effective at convincing people that an outsider is the only one who can do this country well.

Remember, FDR was an insider, too. He had been in public service for a long time prior to becoming President. Hillary is no FDR, but this anti-establishment fervor is toxic to our thinking.
 
She has spent her entire political career riding that thick roll of Wall St cash, becoming quite wealthy in the process. Her biggest accomplishment in office will be 4 years of doing nothing while taking credit for cultural and demographic shifts. She may half-heartedly push for impotent Wall St backed financial "regulations" and take credit for improvements in social justice. Those are bandaids and photo ops.

Mind you I have not been happy with Obama either since his biggest accomplishment was giving massive wheelbarrows full of cash to the private insurance industry - and I don't want a continuation of his center right policies - which is what we will get with Hillary.

Hillary's biggest accomplishment will be 2-3 liberal Supreme Court justices who will either repeal Citizen's United, or pave the way for it to happen eventually, along with ensuring the SC becomes and stays liberal for a generation or more. And who knows what else. For Obama, nobody thought he'd be the president to get gay marriage legalized across the country.

I'm just going to ignore the Obama paragraph, as it's asinine.
 

mattiewheels

And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I see a conscionable voter's right to stand on their principles and vote for who they want to sort of end in the primaries. That's where you get to make your stand and fight for someone. But this country is too deadlocked to take it beyond that, if you choose to make your stand in the general then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face in the most literal sense. If you actually care about the direction this country heads in, you'll at least vote for Supreme Court nominations.
 
I have one question: what makes Hillary Clinton so bad?


Why This Democrat Won’t Vote for Hillary Clinton

As Democrats, as women, we must ask ourselves: Do we stand with the women who report sexual assault—all women: big-haired, “slutty,” trailer-park, all of them—or do we stand, once again, with the Clinton machine and its Arkansas droit du seigneur?

When I was young, my father told me what his father told him: If I got in the voting booth and so much as reached for the Republican lever, the hand of God would come into that voting booth and strike me dead.

I’m not taking any chances.

But I won’t vote for a candidate who helped “destroy” the credibility of women who came forward to report that they had been preyed upon sexually by a powerful man. This year, for the first time in my voting life, I’m staying home
 
If Bernie voters need to be told about how he'll never win, then surely Hillary voters similarly discuss her hawkishness and support for the death penalty.

Her hawkishness, I will say quite stupidly, hasn't hurt my acceptance of her as a candidate, primarily because foreign policy is simply not something I'm very well educated on. I don't know what the best policy to do is in any given position. I do think I'm generally non-interventionist, but at the same time, I do think our country had a responsibility to step in and protect people when terrible things are happening in other countries.

Death penalty support is her biggest drawback for me. I'm very much against the death penalty and I wish she were too. But for me, I've accepted that being against the death penalty is a minority position. Most Americans still seem to like it (actually, I haven't seen polls on this, I'm going from anecdote). While I'd prefer an anti-death penalty candidate (and I did vote for one), I doubt we'll have one in the general. Moreover, I think the death penalty will be something that will only ever get struck down by the Supreme Court. Given that, I think a Democrat president is more likely to appoint justices for that than a Republican president. Especially if that President is Trump.
 
Mind you I have not been happy with Obama either since his biggest accomplishment was giving massive wheelbarrows full of cash to the private insurance industry - and I don't want a continuation of his center right policies - which is what we will get with Hillary.

It's a shame how much of the work Obama does goes under the radar with so many people.
"Center-right" is generally the obvious conclusion to where he is forced to take positions because he has no maneuverability otherwise.

Obama does things for climate change and green energy, criminal justice, local gov't fines, etc that I DO want Hillary to continue.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!

Hillary Clinton has still been a positive force for women in business, government, and on other women's health issues.

We could have Hillary Clinton (with an imperfect record) or we could have someone like Trump or Cruz who will probably say on TV to millions of people that campus rape isn't a problem and it's just liberal paranoia.

That's what we are dealing with here.

If you care about women's issues, you have to go with Hillary.
The Republican Party wants to defund planned parenthood, wants to outlaw abortion, is often against easy access to contraception, and has said terrible things about the legitimacy of rape accusations. They also have no interest in passing universal maternity leave and don't give two shits about feminine product taxes.
 
Anti-GOP is the only logical position for me as a progressive. I don't even care if you vote for Jill Stein, just vote. We need you out there for the local elections. The amount of people saying they will stay home is troubling, and many of the reasons I am seeing are petty.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I have one question: what makes Hillary Clinton so bad? I know that the republicans have painted her as the antichrist but I actually don't get it. What is the huge issue with her? Honestly asking.

I also have a comment to all the non voters. Not voting IS a vote. It's a vote for the candidate that the people who participate choose. The ONLY reason you wouldn't vote is because the nominees are EXACTLY as desirable to you, where you are totally indifferent between say Hillary and trump.

I'm sure there are people who feel this way but they must be quite rare since the candidate's policies differ dramatically

The reasons i am not excited for Hillary.

She is a war hawk.
She is "tough on crime"
She is not for Wall Street regulation that goes far enough.
She is pro death penalty.
She is not against war on drugs.
She is for trade policies that largely benefit multinational corporations

And most importantly by far. She works within an extremely corrupt political system where bribes are legal. You can even argue that her stances on the issues above are hugely influenced by these donations. She is in power BECAUSE of these relationships and donations. Pragmatism? Sure... Corruption? You betcha.

In conclusion , she is a moderate for preserving the status quo, where power remains in the hands of a few.

Do I think Trump is better? Uh nope.
 
Anti-GOP is the only logical position for me as a progressive. I don't even care if you vote for Jill Stein, just vote. We need you out there for the local elections. The amount of people saying they will stay home is troubling, and many of the reasons I am seeing are petty.

Right. Politics is just a game of perception. If people feel like they are not going to be listened to, they won't vote. This is one of the reasons why turnout is so low for young'uns.

Similarly, if people feel very strongly, they DO turn out and vote, more than the average -- we see this with populist pushes all the time. It's why Trump is doing so well, it's why Mussolini, Stalin, and Hitler did so well. So yeah, I'm slightly worried, because although the demographics don't favor Trump, at all, somewhere between 10~15% of the Dem population could simply ...not turn up.
 
I feel like that reasoning, while entirely compelling and valid, still sort of doesn't make sense when faced with the reality that she would be implicitly supporting someone who is pretty much demonstrably worse on that particular issue in Trump. I still remember the whole "husbands can't rape their wives" thing.
The author of that piece lives in California. I think her state will stay blue just fine without her vote.
 
To be completely honest, I probably won't vote in the general election. I'd like to say I would, but I know with a matchup between Hillary and Trump, I won't be motivated enough to go vote. I live in California and it's going blue so it's not like my vote even matters.
 
In what? Because I couldn't care less if people vote for Sanders over Hilary in the Primary.

Yeah, only the primary. I mean, it holds true enough that Hillary would be better than Trump in the general, but it's more a function of how bad Trump is than how good Hillary is, speckled with party loyalty and the remembrance of the good ol' days, where the economy boomed under Bill Clinton. I don't particularly think it's possible to remove Hillary's accomplishments from Bill's, and vice versa.
 
To be completely honest, I probably won't vote in the general election. I'd like to say I would, but I know with a matchup between Hillary and Trump, I won't be motivated enough to go vote. I live in California and it's going blue so it's not like my vote even matters.

This mindset makes me want to smack my head against a wall.
 

Cagey

Banned
To be completely honest, I probably won't vote in the general election. I'd like to say I would, but I know with a matchup between Hillary and Trump, I won't be motivated enough to go vote. I live in California and it's going blue so it's not like my vote even matters.

Write-in someone for President, brush up on any local or state elections that are competitive, and cast votes for candidates you believe in for those races.

Not wanting to vote in any one election is fine, but using not wanting to vote in the most important election as a reason to stay home and not vote for any of the elections on the ballot is not fine.
 

Drek

Member
If we're not equating Bill with Hillary, can you explain why we would vote for her over Sanders?
Because she's the better candidate.

A few facts:
1. Clinton is accused of being untrustworthy. The reality is that no politician is entirely trustworthy, especially one with a deep knowledge of foreign policy because shit happens behind the scenes that simply can't be shared with the general public for various reasons, such as the damage it would do to allies, the fact that most of the general population has a hard time with shades of gray (as seen in this very critique of Clinton), and the information shared could often be vital to future strategy that threats would exploit. An entirely open and honest POTUS would get an awful lot of innocent people killed for the sake of idealism.

2. Sanders is running on a campaign of false promises. He can't deliver the healthcare plan he has put forth and it is not a matter of a GOP congress. He couldn't pass it with a Democratically controlled congress. Obama couldn't get a single payer option through on the ACA specifically because of Blue Dogs threatening to sink the whole thing if it stayed in. You know who could actually get some form of single payer into place? Clinton, because she cracks a much sharper whip than Sanders could ever dream of.

His promise of free tuition rings equally false. It depends entirely on states opting into a federal matching funds program with a substantial increase in post-secondary education spending at the state level at a time when even most blue states are cutting post-secondary funding. The states simply do not have the budget for the funding required to get the match. Add that the GOP controls most of the state houses and governor's mansions with people who literally turned down free money for medicare/medicaid and you see why this is literally not possible to deliver within even a two term presidency.

When you draw the lines reality around what one person tells you is the truth without legitimately testing if that is, in fact, true you lose the ability to tell the lies from the truths right in front of you.

3. She has infinitely more foreign policy experience and has direct first-hand knowledge of the Obama administration's foreign policy stances that have largely kept us out of foreign conflicts. That same strategy has weakened Russia at a time when Putin was poised to push an expansionist war effort, weakened a dishonest actor in our "ally" Saudi Arabia, and paved the way for a treaty with Iran that Clinton said she will honor, weakening the pro-Israel war sentiment at the same time. Obama has taken the establishment "playbook" on foreign policy and through his own re-purposing of it turned out a very strong 7+ years of foreign policy leadership that has greatly benefited America. That is the single most important job the POTUS actually has since domestic policy is too heavily controlled by congress and the senate. Hillary is just far more qualified than anyone else for said job.

Also, before you trot out the "Hillary is a warhawk" Atlantic article that uses unnamed sources please refer to Obama's recent interview where he specifically called out France and the U.K. for why the U.S. got involved in Libya, not some behind the scenes effort by Clinton. "Free riders" and all that. Clinton has an anti-war record longer than almost any viable POTUS candidate not named Sanders (because he's an isolationist at heart).

4. She is a "true progressive" in every sense of the word and has spent her life advocating improvements in healthcare, children's rights, education, and voter enfranchisement. Her donor list is the same as Obama's, FYI, and that has bought Wall Street jack shit from Obama. Step outside the ideological echo chamber and all the various complaints about not locking up Wall St. executives, etc. will make a lot more sense (in short, the cases are very hard to build, judges routinely let even the convicted go unpunished, and so in the end you wind up with nothing but pyrrhic victories).


Simply put, what reputation does Hillary have that Bill is not known for? This is an honest question because, for the life of me, I can't come up with much.
She is far more of a progressive liberal than he, a trend consistent throughout their time in the public spotlight, and has moved far more to the left than he has since leaving the White House. She was a successful U.S. Senator who voted well to the left of even most Democrats. She was a strong Sec. of State who made substantial strides in rebuilding the respect and status of the United States post-GWB. She is a far greater advocate of early childhood education, universal healthcare, and gun control than her husband as just a few examples.
 

TaterTots

Banned
You shouldn't be riled up over people not voting. You should be riled up over the Bernie supporters who say they will vote Trump if he(Bernie) does not get the nom due to spite. That's what concerns me.
 
As much as I would love to also say that white Bernie Sanders supporters can clock in their white privilege when everything doesn't go as planned....I can't solely blame them if they don't want to vote for Hillary either. As spiteful and selfish as that is,there are quite a few minorities even that are also anti Hillary and say the same "I won't vote for neither and or I'll vote for Trump" that I feel is not being said here. Lots of huge POC figures has jumped behind Bernie because they believe in what he's saying but they are also being ignored as also being wilfully ignorant in their approach too.
 
I don't really think she's going to do anything for black people, but Bernie is pretty much through. And I'd rather have Hillary than Trump. Lesser of evils, and all that.
 
You shouldn't be riled up over people not voting. You should be riled up over the Bernie supporters who say they will vote Trump if he(Bernie) does not get the nom due to spite. That's what concerns me.

well the people who are willing to do that aren't true progressives in the first place so why bother appealing to them?
 
Yeah, only the primary. I mean, it holds true enough that Hillary would be better than Trump in the general, but it's more a function of how bad Trump is than how good Hillary is, speckled with party loyalty and the remembrance of the good ol' days, where the economy boomed under Bill Clinton. I don't particularly think it's possible to remove Hillary's accomplishments from Bill's, and vice versa.

I'm not a person who takes issue with how people vote in the Primary. If they feel Sanders represents them, then by all means vote for him in the Primary. In the end Sanders represents me about .05 less than Hillary, so I will happily vote for either in the general. I'm just tired of some (albeit few here anyway) people talking as if Hillary is some proxy for Bill. Of course she's going to have a lot of similarities to her husband, that makes sense given they are married, but I take umbrage with those who attribute those views to him rather than her own personhood.
 
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