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[Orbis Tabula]

Yeah, it's not even complicated.

In a football game, when one team fails to make a touchdown, it increases the chance of the other team closer to winning even if they didn't actually score anything. That's how the basic premises of competition work.

Exactly. And if one of a team's players decides to just stand there and not run any plays, he doesn't get to say "I wasn't helping the other team. I just didn't want to contribute to this play because it's not what I would've run." That's not how it works.

 

[RDreamer]

And no, I don't subscribe to the 'A vote for not-Hillary is a vote for Trump' newsletter bullshit. So convince me some other way.

Convince you in a way other than the reality of the choice?

 

[The Technomancer]

So? She has to earn my vote. Down ticket canidates can do it. The local boy scout and girl scout leaders can do it. Hillary has had years to do it. If she can't convince me, after so many years in public office, that she is a decent enough human being that she can be trusted in the White House to run the country, why should I vote for her?

And no, I don't subscribe to the 'A vote for not-Hillary is a vote for Trump' newsletter bullshit. So convince me some other way.

I'm going to echo myself again:
lets say Hillary was...95% identical to Ted Cruz, against him in the election. Like, just generally awful on abortion, fiscal policy, everything, and we were going to be stuck with one of them. But she had one really good position, one progressive and actionable plan to improve K-12 education across the entire nation

Is that little amount of good really worth less than the 30 minutes its going to take you to go vote at your local polling place? Really? This is different if voting requires you to...take off work and financially damage yourself, if that's the case obviously do what's better for yourself. But if its literally less than an hour of your time to contribute towards a decision that might even positively effect a few million lives, are you really not going to take it? Are you that high-minded that maintaining your internal righteousness is so much more critically important than marginally moving the country forward in some tangible way?

 

[styl3s]

Why would someone go out and vote for someone they don't believe in?

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support".

Besides, Trump is going to win the vote where i live it doesn't matter if i go in and vote a thousand times under a thousand different names and i am not voting for Hilary simply because i don't want Trump in. I don't like either of them.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Oh, absolutely. I phrased that poorly. I don't mean the Clinton campaign. I mean more that there's a small group of Clinton supporters who are just insufferably poor winners. They're very much a minority, but just as the crazy Bernie Sanders fans have hurt his image, gloating Clinton fans can hurt hers.

Real talk, I have 0 problem with most Bernie supporters. Hell, I like the guy fine myself (or I did until relatively recently). I can get why you'd want to push harder to the left right now, even if I don't think it's the best play, politically.

But people who are planning to stay home during the general or burn their vote or even worse flip to Trump get 0 respect. None. At all. Ever.

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support"

Because, as a human being with a presumably functioning brain, you can recognize that doing some good is better than doing no good or even worse doing great harm. You are not so catastrophically stupid to think that there really does exist a perfect messianic candidate who is ideal in all ways because we are in a representative democracy and the only way to get that perfect is to run yourself. You are not a total fucking sociopath, so you realize that although a candidate may not benefit you, it's worth the time it takes to drive to the polls and cast a vote because they will help others, substantially.

At least, I assume that's all true. There's certainly evidence to the contrary.

 

[Cagey]

Oh, absolutely. I phrased that poorly. I don't mean the Clinton campaign. I mean more that there's a small group of Clinton supporters who are just insufferably poor winners. They're very much a minority, but just as the crazy Bernie Sanders fans have hurt his image, gloating Clinton fans can hurt hers.

Crazy Sanders fans didn't hurt Sanders's image except among a handful of #teamhillary morons who turn political campaigns into celebrity fandom wars.

Gloating Clinton fans have not hurt Clinton's image either, except among the same sort but of the #teambernie variety.

It means nothing.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

What can the Clinton camp do to make Bernie fans feel welcome? It's hard when you have to welcome people like this:

The internet supporters can play their role. Using a strong uplifting message is a good way to extend the olive branch and find common ground.
It shouldn't be hard to take the high road in the Hillary Camp.

But we've already seen a lot of condescending and smug attitudes towards his supporters.
I think tensions are still high and many progressives are still salty about Bernie's inevitable loss. But it's important to continue to keep them engaged.

Her campaign will have to pivot and show that Bernie is welcome. She's already said that Bernie will be one of the first people she calls if she were to get the nomination to seek guidance on how we can move this country forward. I think Bernie will end up doing some campaign work for her closer to the general.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not voting because you don't like either candidate is beyond silly in a two party system where the partys lean extremely opposite. You don't like Hilary, fine. Do you like Republicans and their policy then? If not, why would you risk that? Does someone need to be.likable to therefore lead to positivity for all?

Not voting is silly.

 

[GK86]

The 'let's jump down Bernie supporters throats" is stale too.

 

[Coffee Dog]

It's presumptuous and extremely rude. If you're a conservative, you want a Republican in the White House to nominate justices, anchor budget negotiations, and not veto the repeal of Obamacare.

I don't believe it at all presumptuous to state that inaction assists trump.

Given that fact, you are either cognizant of your actions or not. Therefore, racist, or ignorant.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office?

Because they can still do good. You can give up your righteousness because the imperfect candidate you disagree with can still make decisions that impact millions of people

Clinton may not be who you want. But she will do more things in office to help people than Cruz or Trump will. That's what matters

 

[RDreamer]

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support"

Voting for the lesser of two evils is life. It's the world you live in. It's called making a decision as an adult. In the real world you're not going to fully believe in every choice you have to make. You're not going to fully believe in almost any choice you get to make. Again, it's called being an adult.

You're not getting up and making a speech about this person you vote for. You're not endorsing anyone. No ones kicking down your door if you choose someone you're not 100% behind. This is life. This is how decision making is in life.

You're never going to "fully support" someone, unless you're just completely delusional or not paying attention to their views.

 

[wild wild rice]

OK, so, no Bernie is not the nominee. Now what? Surely you need to acknowledge that even if Hillary is not what you imagined Bernie to be, she is surely closer to your ideals than whatever the GOP puts forth? And that allowing the GOP to take power would essentially set your cause back even further?

I just correlated this whole thing with the argument that millennials have never had to deal with being told 'no' in their life. You need to be equipped to continue to solve problems when things don't go your way instead of just running away.

Directed toward no one specific here.

 

[DeviantBoi]

Once Bernie drops out and supports Clinton and urges his followers to vote for her, would they do it?

 

[GitarooMan]

It's amazing the lack of perspective and empathy some people can have when it comes to politics. Who cares what happens to everyone else, I just don't have the "passion" to vote...

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I'm going to echo myself again:
lets say Hillary was...95% identical to Ted Cruz, against him in the election. Like, just generally awful on abortion, fiscal policy, everything, and we were going to be stuck with one of them. But she had one really good position, one progressive and actionable plan to improve K-12 education across the entire nation

Is that little amount of good really worth less than the 30 minutes its going to take you to go vote at your local polling place? Really? This is different if voting requires you to...take off work and financially damage yourself, if that's the case obviously do what's better for yourself. But if its literally less than an hour of your time to contribute towards a decision that might even positively effect a few million lives, are you really not going to take it? Are you that high-minded that maintaining your internal righteousness is so much more critically important than marginally moving the country forward in some tangible way?

I really, really like this way of framing it. Makes it all seem so clear. Keep being awesome, Technomancer.

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support".

Besides, Trump is going to win the vote where i live it doesn't matter if i go in and vote a thousand times under a thousand different names and i am not voting for Hilary simply because i don't want Trump in. I don't like either of them.

The choice fundamentally comes down to what her you'd rather do something that feels good, or do something that does good.

Real talk, I have 0 problem with most Bernie supporters. Hell, I like the guy fine myself (or I did until relatively recently). I can get why you'd want to push harder to the left right now, even if I don't think it's the best play, politically.

But people who are planning to stay home during the general or burn their vote or even worse flip to Trump get 0 respect. None. At all. Ever.

Maybe. Maybe I'm giving too much credit to people who don't deserve it. But I think a lot of Bernie fans are legitimately emotionally distressed right now. Crushed. And in these moments, people will say and do irrational things. And I think the best way to guide them back to reason is through love and kindness, not through mockery. Honey or vinegar, you know? It's almost certainly naive, and framing it as "irrational v. Reason" like I just did will probably still insult some people. But I really believe that people are convertible, and I'd rather do something that doesn't feel good (work hard to empathize instead of have fun laughing) if I think that it'll do good (get more people voting democrat, which I sincerely believe is the Good thing to do.)

Crazy Sanders fans didn't hurt Sanders's image except among a handful of #teamhillary morons who turn political campaigns into celebrity fandom wars.

Gloating Clinton fans have not hurt Clinton's image either, except among the same sort but of the #teambernie variety.

It means nothing.

Maybe you're right. I have a tendency to assign too much significance to these things.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support".

Besides, Trump is going to win the vote where i live it doesn't matter if i go in and vote a thousand times under a thousand different names and i am not voting for Hilary simply because i don't want Trump in. I don't like either of them.

So it seems you have you never voted in a Presidential election then?
Because your ideal candidate who makes it to the top of the RNC or DNC is likely never going to happen.

The "vote for the lesser of 2 evils" is absolutely not bullshit. The United States government is deliberately set up for slow and incremental change. It's extremely hard for one ideology to dominate the country and the legislative process.
Progress is incremental.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I will not vote for Hillary, period. But I will still vote, because the down ticket elections are still important.

But if my vote for not-Hillary changes the presidential election, so be it. I will not, for any reason, vote for someone that I cannot trust to lead the country. I will go to bed knowing I did my part even if it means the worst.

This is how I feel. I always vote on my local elections. I won't hold my nose and vote for Hillary. I didn't vote for her in '08 either. I wouldn't have voted for her then had Obama not won. I hope she will be primaried in '20. By then I hope her supporters will see that they have been fooled.

 

[Fuchsdh]

In this thread: people demand their candidates be pure ideologues, and then wonder why the Republican party has become run by voters who demand pure ideologues.

And yeah, politics is a world of compromise, of "perfect is the enemy of good". You can wash your hands of it and the system, but then you're pragmatically helping people who probably share a lot fewer of your beliefs, unless you're demographically an old white dude.

This is how I feel. I always vote on my local elections. I won't hold my nose and vote for Hillary. I didn't vote for her in '08 either. I wouldn't have voted for her then had Obama not won. I hope she will be primaried in '20. By then I hope her supporters will see that they have been fooled.

Fooled... how?

 

[lednerg]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

I don't think anybody's saying that all Bernie voters are like this, but there's quite a few Bernie supporters in this thread that are like that. So why not call those few out?

 

[SilentRob]

"I don't want a corporate shill in the white house, so it might as well be Trump. Fuck muslims, gay people, black people and women, right? What do I care? Leave me alone! GIVE ME WHAT I WANT OR I'M GOING HOME!""

 

[RDreamer]

I just correlated this whole thing with the argument that millennials have never had to deal with being told 'no' in their life. You need to be equipped to continue to solve problems when things don't go your way instead of just running away.

Im still a millennial myself but it just blows my mind what's going on. It really feels like entitlement, and like most millenials just haven't had to make enough adult choices in their life to know how choices like this work. This is why conservatives win so much in this country. The young generation throws their hands in the air because it's not "perfect" for them and they go sit in the corner and bawl to themselves about it. Meanwhile conservatives know how to make real adult choices and as such their side gets a lot of push. They get the midterm wins.

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

Of course not every Bernie voter is like that. Some of us trying to show the logic of this choice are Bernie supporters. I'm a huge Bernie supporter. I'll be voting for him in Wisconsin soon. But I also understand the real choice and what that might end up being. I can't with a straight face say Hillary and Trump don't have real meaningful differences.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

Well there are NO examples in the thread saying other wise including your post.

 

[wild wild rice]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

Eh, there's enough evidence in this thread and from friends on facebook that it's a very real thing. Maybe not the majority, but it exists and a discussion is worthwhile. It's not like this is a Bernie supporter pile on or anything.

 

[DragonSworne]

If Hillary doesn't win then the only people to blame are the Hillary voters who propped up an un-electable candidate.

 

[GitarooMan]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

Yeah, I do think it's valid to point out that this is very much a loud minority thing. I think most Democratic voters are in fact pretty pragmatic and don't dislike either candidate completely. But the ideologues do make a lot of noise, on both sides.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

Most people are talking about those who've specifically said they'll flip to Trump or not vote. Several Sanders supporters have also expressed dismay at that as well.

 

[Salz01]

I can't stand the Clintons. So done with them, and they won't go away. They just want to get into the whitehouse to sell more books.

Everybody forgets that people wanted to impeach his ass. IMPEACH. ... And now we vote his wife in, and have to see more of him. Fuck that.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

It's utter horseshit how much this narrative about your typical Bernie voter is being accepted.

What are you basing this on? Your own biases?

I can't stand the Clintons. So done with them, and they won't go away. They just want to get into the whitehouse to sell more books.

Do you seriously believe they need to be in the whitehouse if selling books was their objective?

 

[dramatis]

IMO, the best chance to get Bernie 2.0 any time soon (i.e. not 20-30 years from now) is to get Bernie 1.0 in the White House.

I'll support Clinton if she gets the nomination but I won't cry if/when she loses. I think she is a deeply flawed candidate.

What's probably going to happen is she will win and in 8 years it will be Castro running saying he will continue the same policies as Obama/Hillary and you will see the same people come out and trot the same arguments about electability and the supreme court.

I don't think so.

I think that the changes to society and the ideas that are gaining popularity and are becoming widespread today ensure a Bernie 2.0 will appear in the future, no matter whether Hillary wins the nomination or not. If you think of this as a war, then now is the time to secure tentative gains and fortify said gains. If she becomes president the job of Hillary is to be a wall, and bide the time for more demographic change. If the youth vote is so clearly energized and ready to participate in politics, then yes, you won't have to wait 20-30 years from now to get Bernie 2.0 in the presidency, because said vote would be enough to get him or her the Democratic nomination maybe even 8 years from now.

But right now it's obviously not enough. There's not enough demographic change. And Bernie is a poor candidate in the sense that he picked one strategy with very little deviance. It's not enough to pull enthusiasm or support for him from anywhere other than youth. And I guess white men.

You might think of it as "I've done this compromising thing for a long time, I'm tired of it"—but I see that as something of a selfish desire for instant gratification. For the whole process, I think of it as a long game. The idea isn't to get immediate satisfaction; the idea is to cement change and push for more working with the system. If it is a game of inches, so be it! Most of us who are posting here bitterly complaining? We're the young and the future, and we'll be here as the older, conservative voters die out. We have time. With Hillary we can address the urgent concerns (Supreme Court), defend recent gains (Obama), build for the future (DNC down ticket collaborations/elections) and what is so wrong with that? Because progress takes years and more than one person's effort?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I can't stand the Clintons. So done with them, and they won't go away. They just want to get into the whitehouse to sell more books.

Everybody forgets that people wanted to impeach his ass. IMPEACH. ... And now we vote his wife in, and have to see more of him. Fuck that.

I'm sure Trump appreciates your support.

 

[Iron Man Cooking a Crepe]

You sabotage and villify any legitimate Left voice that comes close to getting the Democratic nom, and you make their supporters out to be naive idealists or Communists or whatever red-baiting bullshit you can come up with. You call us anti-feminists or racists and actively work against our efforts to have our voices represented in the party.

Mostly because those voices tend to be batshit crazy and lack historical and present context and nuance, and only project the white male perspective, and lack very little difference from a neocon perspective on minorities and women.

 

[GSG Flash]

If Hillary wins, I think Bernie supporters should just hold their noses and vote for her anyways. I really don't like Hillary but the alternative is pretty much hell.

It is kind of annoying that Hillary will be the first woman president though, there are other more deserving women who aren't pathological liars and closet Republicans in terms of many of their policies.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

I'm sure Trump appreciates your support.

I love that his argument boils down to "her husband almost got fired for a blow job so she's a bad candidate."

 

[AlphaDump]

If Hillary wins, I think Bernie supporters should just hold their noses and vote for her anyways. I really don't like Hillary but the alternative is pretty much hell.

It is kind of annoying that Hillary will be the first woman president though, there are other more deserving women who aren't pathological liars and closet Republicans in terms of many of their policies.

I bet you unironically think Elizabeth Warren is a better choice.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This is why i am not voting.

The "vote for the lesser of two evils" is bullshit, why would i give up my views and morals just so the person who is slightly less shitty gets in office? I stand by my views and beliefs and i refuse to give them up simply because i don't like X or Y. You can get mad and call me whatever you want but i have just the much right to not vote and nobody is entitled to mine. When someone comes along i fully support i will back them and don't give me the bullshit cherry picking "just pick the one that has the most views that you support".

Besides, Trump is going to win the vote where i live it doesn't matter if i go in and vote a thousand times under a thousand different names and i am not voting for Hilary simply because i don't want Trump in. I don't like either of them.

The bolded is just bullshit. You enjoy benefits of things that are not in line with your views and beliefs all the time. You are even actively making use of it probably. The world is not black and white, sometimes you need to pick a certain level of grey to get things done or even able to function in life. You are cherry picking all the time about what you care about and where you make a stand. Everyone does.

 

[lednerg]

Yeah, I do think it's valid to point out that this is very much a loud minority thing. I think most Democratic voters are in fact pretty pragmatic and don't dislike either candidate completely. But the ideologues do make a lot of noise, on both sides.

A better, less cranky way of putting it.

 

[Abstrusity]

I can't stand the Clintons. So done with them, and they won't go away. They just want to get into the whitehouse to sell more books.

Everybody forgets that people wanted to impeach his ass. IMPEACH. ... And now we vote his wife in, and have to see more of him. Fuck that.

Yeah, the argument of "She's more pragmatic and open to compromise, she'll get stuff done!" Kinda ignores the whole "Republican Party won't even try to compromise" thing. Without shifting the House or Senate, Clinton won't get much done, either -- the hatred for the Clintons far surpasses anything for Obama on the right.

Plus, this wild card that is this email scandal may have a devastating effect. I doubt it, but you can never really be too sure, especially with populist candidates.

 

[collige]

In this thread: people demand their candidates be pure ideologues, and then wonder why the Republican party has become run by voters who demand pure ideologues.

The GOP is doing very well for itself since the Tea Party took over though. Those "pure ideologues" have been very effective at getting their views represented in Congress.

 

[Ultima_5]

I love that his argument boils down to "her husband almost got fired for a blow job so she's a bad candidate."

its also pretty gross to assume she is exactly the same as her husband. wtf is wrong with people

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Damnit.

 

[DragonSworne]

I bet you unironically think Elizabeth Warren is a better choice.

What's wrong with Elizabeth Warren? Are people bashing her now?

 

[Fuchsdh]

The GOP is doing very well for itself since the Tea Party took over though. Those "pure ideologues" have been very effective at getting their views represented in Congress.

Because their only opposition is liberals who don't vote in midterms. Not that hard to win when the other side doesn't give a shit to vote and then complains bitterly about how the country has swung to the right.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

its also pretty gross to assume she is exactly the same as her husband. wtf is wrong with people

This. I'm tired of certain people equating Hillary to Bill as if she's not a person and rather an extension of her husband. It's the sort of sexism that makes me reluctant to want to ally with certain people.

 

[Chococat]

The problem with your argument OP is that you're ragging on people for having morals.

Get over your self. Your described superior morals are just your personal preferences- they are not the gold standard. Sanders supported talk about how smug Clinton supporters are while pissing all over democratic allies from your enlightened ivory towers.

So so many people are calling you guys out on your bullshit revolution. You never were about Bernie's platform, you were about the cult of personality built up around the man. If that 7% platform difference between Clinton and Sanders is enough to make one jump to Trump/Cruz/third party, how much of Bernie's ideals did you really support?

 

[Poodlestrike]

If Hillary doesn't win then the only people to blame are the Hillary voters who propped up an un-electable candidate.

Or, alternatively, we could blame the so-called progressives who would rather implicitly elect the White Supremacy candidate rather than gloss over wallstreet donations because they're so utterly divorced from reality that actively bolstering white power movements is the same to them as being well-liked at Goldman Sachs.

That sort of excuse is valid for the general electorate, but for the kind of people who are already involved in the process, there's an expected level of political awareness. If there are significant numbers of Bernie fans who don't vote or flip Trump, I have absolutely no problem with calling them out as the moronic jackasses they are.

 

[Princess Carl]

Trying to separate emotion from our decision making is why we still have so any states with the Death Penalty. It's pretty difficult in our culture. Why its happening here is the subsequent entitlement of our progress or something.

Also, I would guess that almost everyone making this suggestion are the same people who probably never voted in a midterm election in their life. I wonder if these people held the same belief when they watched the horde of tea party political hijackers sweep midterms and begin enacting laws more damaging then anything Hilary Clinton or a not quite perfect democratic candidate could possibly do in 8 years. Was every democratic candidate then just not good enough to vote for?

Society is multi generational with lots of shifting norms and all sorts of shit. A country like ours is fighting an uphill battle against basic rights and services from the start, things are entrenched in shitty practices because of a lot of things from a lot of different generations.

The change has to be incremental or it will not happen at all. It sucks so much but that's one of the drawbacks of large successful societies!

I honestly wonder if people really understand what it would mean to not have another democratic president for the next 8 years. You wanna talk about something 100x worse that affects all citizens regardless of state? Let the hyper nationalistic republican party win and open that can of worms.



Not voting in this particular election is the equivalent of "I don't like hyper nationalism and the subsequent racism it breeds, but I don't dislike it enough to stop it." What does that say about you?

 

[AlphaDump]

What's wrong with Elizabeth Warren? Are people bashing her now?

Not at all. She was a Republican, though.

 

[Makonero]

I wonder how many write-in votes for Bernie there will be.