boiled goose
good with gravy
exactly! I wish Hillary supporters would see this and push for this, instead of telling Bernie supporters to "fall in line". Heck, so many times they have even said that they like Bernie's ideas.
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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale
- Thread starter PlayALLtheGames
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exactly! I wish Hillary supporters would see this and push for this, instead of telling Bernie supporters to "fall in line". Heck, so many times they have even said that they like Bernie's ideas.
Prototype Viktor
Member
there's more than just the presidential race on the ballot
shoplifter
Member
No, what Trump winning will tell the democrat is that the people liked trump and didn't like Clinton.
It also tells the D party that Trump's platform was more appealing than Clinton's so you're probably going to see the Dems moving further right too.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Flip that: do you want to just perpetually succumb to hateful armed bullies?
Melkezadek
Member
And I understand that, but if they claim that their left vote doesn't mean anything, then,what does it matter? They already feel that their vote is worthless in a red state.
Nope. A vote is counted as one.
uncelestial
Member
No, there is no greater responsibility on them than there is any other voter. The system must be able to tolerate people feeling this way or it is broken, and the parties must field candidates that do not make people feel this way or it will fail. The responsibility for these outcomes is on the system and the parties; the voting public is just a natural force responding to this input.
boiled goose
good with gravy
It is possible that this happens, but given the primary, I would be surprised.
They also got demolished when they did this in 2010.
But yeah the democratic party is incredibly incompetent so anything is possible really :/
They already agree on many issues though, to varying degrees.
http://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-vs-bernie-sanders-on-the-issues-2015-9
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/clinton-sanders-2016-issues/
Issues such as?
Nope that's your belief not mine.
that's likely referring to the presidential election specifically, meaning that their state will likely go for the republican candidate anyway so voting for Hillary would be futile
very well said
A Link to the Past
Banned
As an example, my dad will vote Republican, I'm going to vote Democrat. As such, our votes ultimately don't do anything besides create a higher turnout as they cancel each other out. Now, if either one of us decided to not vote, it would inherently mean that either of our votes don't get cancelled out, right?
I never said that there wasn't. If you vote for Trump, inevitably you'll have to accept the responsibility for the shit he does. If you vote for Hillary and she fucks shit up, same. If you choose not to vote and it leads to Trump getting into the WH and fucking shit up, then you absolutely have to accept responsibility - especially because, frankly, if you vote for a president (or don't vote) and it ultimately has a positive outcome, you're going to boast about having done so, right? So isn't it fair to say that they should also take responsibility for their vote/lack of vote if it has a negative result?
It's cool you don't know how a 2 side election works.
No, it's a "Obama and Hillary are liberals and have been fighting for liberal values their entire life" defense.
Democrats always get demolished in non-presidential year elections. And the Tea party surge was an anomaly.
boiled goose
good with gravy
We did see the GOP go more right this time around after getting their asses handed to them twice in a row...
So yeah. I have little confidence in the democrats.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Liberals pride themselves on being informed, critical thinkers who base their policies on facts and research.
So don't say stuff like this. We have voting records and elections in the past that show that a low turnout helps conservatives get elected.
It's even cooler that you think it is only two sides.
uncelestial
Member
It's cool if you don't know the difference between zero and one.
What an absolute shitpost this is.
Absolutely. The terrible economic agenda that we live under has been in-place for the past 35 years. Unconstitutional domestic surveillance has been in-place for 16 years. The military-industrial complex has been around forever. These are hard issues to tackle, with no guaranteed success and little payoff.
Too many voters on both sides are easily distracted by social issues. I think that we need to be on the right side of these issues, of course, but not to the detriment of fiscal or foreign policy.
It is effectively. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. I'd love for this not to be the case, but, you know.
Melkezadek
Member
Do you honestly believe that in this two party system that your third party vote will have a chance at the presidency?
Like in many circumstances you're welcomed to your beliefs but that doesn't mean they hold any water in reality
You know why Dems and GoP go further right?
Because they're rewarded by higher turnout and more elected officials.
If you don't vote at the local level for a more left candidate you're broadcasting the message that you don't want the country to move on the left.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Like the vast majority of Hillary supporters already support her conversing with Bernie in how she can earn the support base he speaks to. Hell, many even support her making him an adviser for certain areas she's weaker in.
Don't tell what I cab and cannot say. I don't care about history. It is not my job to get someone elected. It is the candidates job.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Voting in red states isn't futile. It may have less of an impact, which yeah, totally frustrating. But if the electoral victory didn't match the popular vote consensus we'd have another shitshow on our hands
boiled goose
good with gravy
Lots of nuance missing here both behind the democratic loss and the tea party surge.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Exactly. Voting outside of the general election is the most important thing a voter can do.
You know what a good arguement to make for voting Hilary would be at this point? (this is to Bernie supporters who are thinking of voting Trump or abstaining)
My theory is that if we get Hilary voted in as president and she does what she plans to do, it won't change any republicans minds on how they vote but all Bernie supporters get to say I told you so if things don't get better and eventually get to use that against the next set of candidates. So it's even harder for "you liked Obama/Hilary? How about another 4 years of that?" Now people will say, fuuuuuck that and finally vote for the Bernie-a-like.
I think that'd work out better than letting Trump in office and watching Rome burn which will eventually end up with another moderate Democrat back in office because Hilary supporters would have been the ones saying I told you so.
My theory is that if we get Hilary voted in as president and she does what she plans to do, it won't change any republicans minds on how they vote but all Bernie supporters get to say I told you so if things don't get better and eventually get to use that against the next set of candidates. So it's even harder for "you liked Obama/Hilary? How about another 4 years of that?" Now people will say, fuuuuuck that and finally vote for the Bernie-a-like.
I think that'd work out better than letting Trump in office and watching Rome burn which will eventually end up with another moderate Democrat back in office because Hilary supporters would have been the ones saying I told you so.
But isn't the relevance of votes always relative to the voter turnout? If someone abstains it would just mean that your and your dads vote are more meaningful because you're now voting in the name of the person who abstained.
uncelestial
Member
Who gives a shit? There are other reasons people vote besides a pragmatic desire to get a "lesser of two evils" candidate in office. For example, they want to express their beliefs in a way that the system and political parties notice, or they want to help build the base of support for a party that reflects their ideas so it can be viable one day.
Iron Man Cooking a Crepe
Banned
Yes it does. Supporting open naked institutional racism makes you a racist. Point blank end of story.
Not sure how this is so confusing. Most things in life have nuance, this is not one of those things.
This thread doesn't welcome anyone's beliefs. I don't vote only candidates like a place bets in Vegas.
radios shipping overview
Member
I support Bernie's ideals, but as a candidate he is unrealistic and he never had a real shot at the nom. Hillary is a mercenary centrist and a corporatist, but she'll support social progressivism. A vote for her means a vote against the US getting its own Berlusconi and against empowering the worst actors in the country, so I'll vote for Hillary.
If you're feeling burned by Bern not getting further in the process, but you care about the ideals he stands for, then fucking vote in your local elections where you have more of a say in things, and where the process really matters.
If you're feeling burned by Bern not getting further in the process, but you care about the ideals he stands for, then fucking vote in your local elections where you have more of a say in things, and where the process really matters.
The tea party surge was a response to Obama, they thought he was too liberal. They ran on how "terrible" Obamacare was. There's no mistaking that.
Add to that the fact that democratic turn-out is always low in between presidential election years, and....
balladofwindfishes
Member
There are only two people who will become President. You have a choice between either one.
A vote for a third candidate only helps the candidate whose views are opposite of that of the person you voted for.
Consider for a second. When has a third party ever helped, versus hinder, an election in its direction? In every case, the third party helped get the direct opposite view get elected. It's just how it works. Maybe you don't like it, but it's not up to an opinion. It's what happens and we have a long history in the country showing this is how it works.
If you want to deny facts and historical records, I think you're in the wrong political party. The Tea Party generally discusses their stuff on other forums, not much of a presence on GAF.
Can you name a third party presidential candidate whose votes influenced the direction of the party?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I was just going to say, it'd be neat if Bernie were to fill that role. It would probably be the best way to keep turnout up.
It depends on who abstained, doesn't it? If a Republican abstained for instance, my dad's vote would just be filling in for that person.
The only way a >two-party system can work is if we implement a second-choice-candidate system that lets you vote for a third-party candidate, but if they do not win, allow you to have a second choice of a Democrat or Republican. This would make people less afraid of voting for a candidate who has a lower chance of winning, but also avoid the risk that it could hurt the main party that you favour.
Omegasquash
Member
What am I reading?
boiled goose
good with gravy
They are rewarded with more legalized bribes, which results in more ads, which results in more elected officials. Yes.
It might be a harsh thing to say but we are definitely always "duped" by politicians. Their legislative record does not reflect constituents in aggregate and yet with enough ads you can trick people into voting for you.
the whole point of a democracy is that voters hold the power of who is elected, not candidates.
It's effectively a 2 sides election, that wouldn't be the case if there was a national party that was an alternative.
there is no real difference between 1 vote for Trump and 0 vote for Clinton and 2 votes for Trump and 1 vote for Clinton.
If you bet on a coin toss if the coin fall on 1 side it doesn't on the other.
boiled goose
good with gravy
How was the tea party funded and how was it propped up?
Obama had record breaking turnout. I can tell you why personally for me voting in 2010 was much less exciting than voting in 2008.
uncelestial
Member
Probably every single one, since they forced candidates from the main two parties to cater to the audience they were losing to the third party candidate.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I want names. I want studies and research into historical trends and voting patterns on the positive influence of third party presidential candidates in United States history.
And if you want to change that, you know what you have to do?
Engage in politic and make your candidate at the local/state level be elected so that your representative can change this.
Or you can sit on your ass and complain that you don't like your president.
And thus we have the explanation for Tea Party's success.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
I wonder if anyone has gone back and interviewed Nader voters from 2000 and asked them, today, if they would've voted differently if they would've known what followed...
Let me nip this a bit in the bud by saying that Nader voters are not solely responsible for W getting elected. The Supreme Court had a bigger hand in that.
You know, the same Supreme Court that will likely have 2 maybe 3 seats needing to be filled in the next 4-8 years
so keep on truckin' with that Bernin' down the house in the case that Bernie isn't the candidate. Surely that's the best means to progress, to allow for regression
Let me nip this a bit in the bud by saying that Nader voters are not solely responsible for W getting elected. The Supreme Court had a bigger hand in that.
You know, the same Supreme Court that will likely have 2 maybe 3 seats needing to be filled in the next 4-8 years
so keep on truckin' with that Bernin' down the house in the case that Bernie isn't the candidate. Surely that's the best means to progress, to allow for regression
radios shipping overview
Member
I was a Nader voter in 2000. Don't make my mistake.
Iron Man Cooking a Crepe
Banned
That fact that you think people should be tolerant of racism is scary.
They thought he was too black.
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