Windom Earle
Member
The eSRAM is not an advantage, it's merely a measure to have a less crippled system due to the DDR3. PS4 ram solution is superior. Both in bandwith and ease of use.
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Xbox One GPU Specs reveal date?
- Thread starter Xamdou
- Start date
This.
klapauzius
Banned
They will not officially announce the specs.
Sony could do it with the PS4, because the PS4 is simply a PC in a console box, there is no additional "magic" that could raise the power.
On the other side there are Xbox One and Wii U who has lower raw specs of the GPU but some additional hardware to raise the power (especially Wii U). Xbox One has eSDRAM. Wii U has eDRAM, DSP etc. But it is not easy for marketing to explain those advantages for a normal consumer who only looks on big numbers.
Sony could do it with the PS4, because the PS4 is simply a PC in a console box, there is no additional "magic" that could raise the power.
On the other side there are Xbox One and Wii U who has lower raw specs of the GPU but some additional hardware to raise the power (especially Wii U). Xbox One has eSDRAM. Wii U has eDRAM, DSP etc. But it is not easy for marketing to explain those advantages for a normal consumer who only looks on big numbers.
That point is moot anyways since he wouldn't see a difference between a PS3 and a PS4 game.
Your over simplification ("CPU weak, GPU strong!") is a bit too... Simplistic. The Wii U also has GPU compute abilities, both in terms of API support and on the GPU itself. It's just of an older generation of chip than GCN, which makes it less potent in practical terms. Doesn't make it unusable, because developers are using it.
To the other poster above: the Xbox one also has a sound processor, one which is quite a bit more potent than the Wii u's due to kinect basically. All the systems have various things to assist the relatively weak CPUs.
WiiU vs 1.28 vs 1.84 TF,what secret sauce will 'magically' raise that number?
PS4 has a sound processor as well.
That analogy is actually a perfect description of why GPGPU setups are so exciting. Good choice with Gran Turismo, as that's the kind of game and developer I expect to see utilize this to a great extent. Of course Yamauchi is going to take 15,000 years to release the game. Cerny's decision to go for 64 compute queues is a move that's sure to pay off in the long run.
Uhh, I am not sure you know how a processor's memory system works.
Writes to RAM are done by a memory controller.
I wouldn't worry too much about these things, it's for the developers to work with and depends entirely on them. What we will need to worry about is if there will be tangible differences between multiplats, so far devs are saying they struggle to use 4-5GB of RAM which is a good thing meaning plenty of room for growth on the systems.
My guess is the differences will tranaslate to extra particle effects, AA etc .. What I would like to know is by what margin? Would the margin be noticeable to most people? How would devs work with the extra power in PS4?
My guess is the differences will tranaslate to extra particle effects, AA etc .. What I would like to know is by what margin? Would the margin be noticeable to most people? How would devs work with the extra power in PS4?
Well colour me silly! Here I thought you could do stuff like physics on the GPUs that came before way, way before HSA (i.e. including all of them out there now) via OpenCL - that include the 4000 series.I must've been wrong on that!
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Yup.
It was told to me before E3 they would be hiding the specs and that will remain the case. There will be no official reveal of the GPU specifications
Windom Earle
Member
The Xbone is also a PC in a box, just one with a weaker GPU and an inferior memory setup. Secret sauce pipe dreams are dead son.
I think you should do some more reading on OpenCL.
Perhaps you should use the word "impractical" or "slower" or something along those lines. And not the word "can't" as you did.
Because I assure you, OpenCL works and is very real and practical for non-"visual" calculation - even on older GPUs (though less-so the older you go). People have been coding OpenCL (and PhysX) software that has been doing AI, physics, and other "non-visual" things with GPU compute for a very long time now without the requirements of HSA which is only a very recent development
velociraptor
Junior Member
You can use something like Crysis 3 as a very rough basis for comparison between the two console GPUs. For multiplats, at least.
7770
1.28 TFLOPS (XB1 - 1.24 TF)
16 ROPS (XB1 - 16 ROPS)
1GB @ 72 GB/s (XB1 - 5GB @ 67 GB/s)
7850
1.76 TFLOPS (PS4 - 1.84 TF)
32 ROPS (PS4 - 32 ROPS)
2 GB @ 154 GB/s (PS4 - 7GB [?] @ 176 GB/s)
Crysis 2, max settings DX11, 1080p, high-resolution textures, 4xMSAA http://www.guru3d.com/miraserver/images/2012/r7800/Untitled-19.png
7850: 42 fps
7770: 25 fps
Battlefield 3 DX11, Ultra mode, 4xMSAA, 16x AF enabled, HBAO enabled http://www.guru3d.com/miraserver/images/2012/r7800/Untitled-28.png
7850: 32 fps
7770: 21 fps
Crysis 3 1080p, DX11, High settings, FXAA: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/crysis_3_graphics_performance_review_benchmark,6.html
7850: 35 fps
7770: 23 fps
Crysis Warhead 1920x1080 - Enthusiast Quality + 4xAA: http://gpuboss.com/graphics-card/Radeon-HD-7770
7850: 38.9fps
7770: 23fps
Tomb Raider, 1080p, Ultra, DX11: http://kotaku.com/5990848/tomb-raider-performance-test-graphics-and-cpus
7850: 42 fps
7770: 29 fps
Metro 2033, 1080p, Max, AAA, DX11: http://www.guru3d.com/miraserver/images/2012/r7800/Untitled-17.png
7850: 27 fps
7770: 15 fps
Right - 40-50% advantage for the 7850 except in cases where the 1GB of VRAM chokes the 7770 (Crysis 2, Crysis Warhead).
Real time in interactive video games?
GPU compute is limited by performance and compliance, not whether you're using it to make a car crash or cloth movement more realistic or to assist in the search for extra terrestrial life and curing cancer.
Disagree all you'd like. I was using a GPU to do physx calculations in more than a few games I have played over the last few years, without hsa. Just a cpu and a gpu or two. These are things you can look up and read about If you wish to do so.
Yes! Now we just have to wait for clever developers to leverage this. I.e., create algorithms where the CPU and GPU alternate making passes over the same data. The CPU does "logic" and the GPU crunches shit, in tight synchrony.
Physx is all eye candy. The only game I know of that had interactive physx was GRAW2, but that was only for a small tech demo island called Ageia Island.
And that island showed that its up to the developer what you do with GPU compute. It is not up to hsa. Hsa makes it better, sure, but the other poster spoke in absolutes.
Agree. The reason why GPGPU has not been employed in more use cases has not much to do with hardware limitiations, but with the fact you have to rethink and rewrite algorithms substantially (in practice: from the ground up) to fit the SIMD computation model that underlies GPGPU. And that is (a) not trivial and (b) not possible/feasable for many computations that have substantial amounts of non-parallelizable computation or don't work on large, homogeneous data sets.
thelastword
Banned
Nice comparison so far, it appears though that the PS4 has an advantage with higher bandwidth due to it's 7gb of available ram, but what about the compute units which I've heard so much about, how does it factor in?
Compute Units are modules in the GPU's pipeline that do the (programmable) computation on the GPU. There are other parts of the pipeline that are not really programmable, but configurable or fixed, like the ROPs, but the CUs do the general computation. They consist of 4 "SIMD" modules, each of which has 16 ALUs (Arithmetic Logic Unit) which perform a calculation step. The important thing is, that every ALU in a compute unit executes the same program, each on a different set of data.
googleplex
Member
which is stupid anyway because the specs WILL leak, and Microsoft will look even all the stupider for trying to hide them.
The specs were leaked long ago. They haven't changed.
MS will discuss the "whole" system but they certainly won't get into a flops war.
FlashFlooder
Member
... to the 3-5 people that pay attention and actually care about these kinds of things.
GameSeeker
Member
Microsoft knows that they have significantly under-powered graphics hardware vs. the PS4. They even publicly stated that they were not going for highest performance with Xbone, but rather "All-in-one".
So Microsoft won't reveal anymore graphics specs other than 5 billion transistors and 768 ops/cycle. Fortunately for us, almost the entire graphics spec were leaked by various sources prior to the Xbone reveal. And they have proved to be very accurate. Between tear-downs and future developer leaks we will quickly confirm what we know and may learn anything currently missing.
So Microsoft won't reveal anymore graphics specs other than 5 billion transistors and 768 ops/cycle. Fortunately for us, almost the entire graphics spec were leaked by various sources prior to the Xbone reveal. And they have proved to be very accurate. Between tear-downs and future developer leaks we will quickly confirm what we know and may learn anything currently missing.
Well, what triggers a read or write command? Is it a ghost? Magic? Or is it a shader program? Explain to me, please.
The processor reads the instruction stream, the processor has logic that handles everything the instruction tells it to do, including loading and storing data.
The so called "move engines" are mainly just DMA engines that move data between the SRAM and main RAM.
"Agree to disagree" is nice when discussing opinions, but in this case your initial statement was just wrong.
Exactly. HSA may slightly increase the set of problems GPU compute is applicable to, but it does not solve the main challenge of rethinking algorithms (and obviously it does not invalidate Amadahl's law).
flyinpiranha
Member
Probably that if they have something to brag about, they do ... and if they don't, they don't. "Playstation Family" and all that.
This one:
There's nothing stopping you from using GPU compute for non-visual tasks on a Wii U (or a PC).
Back in 2011, when I last investigated the topic in detail, OpenCL kernel invocation overheads on PCIe GPUs were around 20 microseconds. While that is more than it should be, it's not so much that it would prohibit their use for tons of viable algorithms.
maabus1999
Member
Bitcoin mining is primarily done by GPUs. Not gaming related but still.
It's a new paradigm that requires new algorithms as well as software-architectural adaptations of migrated game engine subsystems. Such new approaches take some time before they are widely adopted. Efficient developers reuse as much as possible, e.g. developer knowledge/experience (a factor that cannot be underestimated), exiting libraries and frameworks. Migrating to GPGPU implies the need to invest time and money in development, because there is simply nothing (or little) to be reused. In the end, a developer might conclude that the reuse of existing technology is more efficient and “enough for the time being”. In addition, nobody will migrate everything on day one, but gradually migrate part after part.
I know and you had good reason to do so. My formulation wasn't appropriate.
What statement was wrong?
I read what you wrote as sending the output of of the GPU processing to the RAM and somehow the "move engines" made that better, on rereading it looks like you could also be saying that the "move engines" could move data between the SRAM and the main RAM without having to be handled by the GPU.
If that is the case, that is possible for it to do, but it is not a proper advantage due to the fact it is just trying to make up for something the PS4 does not even need to do in the first place.
MikeE21286
Member
never
Neuromancer
Member
So, presumably the Xbone has worse GPU and worse RAM than the PS4? Is there anything it has an advantage in?
Neuromancer
Member
Maybe less noise due to the large fan/case.
Lower heat output/power consumption. Microsoft has said the Xbox One SoC has a TDP of 100W and I'd estimate the PS4 SoC at ~140-150W.
The specs have been leaked for months. The Xbone is weaker, that's the bottom line.
Microsoft needed 8GB RAM for their OS-heavy system design, and they couldn't guarantee that amount would be available in GDDR5 form by the time the system launched. Hence they went with 8GB DDR3 + eSRAM to mitigate some of the potential bandwidth issues.
I H8 Memes
Member
What other consumer products are companies allowed to sell without the buyer being allowed to know what is in the product they are buying? People know what's in their phone or car when they buy it. I cant think of any product where the contents and capabilities of the product are kept secret from the customer. When I buy a videocard for my PC I know whats in it. Nvidia doesnt say to me "hey it's a GTX 670. Were not going to tell you whats in it though. Just give us your money and trust us it's really powerful."
Whole thing comes across as kind of shady and it should probably be illegal.
Whole thing comes across as kind of shady and it should probably be illegal.
McHuj
Member
It's not just that, but long term cost as well. I think MS chose the speed of DDR3 specifically for cost reductions with DDR4 at some point in the life of the console.
Right now, you have an SOC that's around 400mm with 256-bit bus for 2.133 Gb/s DDR3 (16 chips). After a couple of shrinks, down in the 16/14nm range, they'll have a SOC that's under 200mm (maybe even 150mm) and 4.266 Gb/s DDR4 on a 128-bit bus (8 or maybe even 4 chips).
Unless some new tech comes out (it could be some interposer based solution), Sony will be stuck with GDDR5 on a 256-bit bus. Around 2018/2019, the X1 should be a lot cheaper to manufacture than the PS4. The question is will the X1 matter at that point?
Xbone's specs won't change throughout its lifecycle. They're not going to change the type of memory inside the unit, especially if you're talking cost reductions, since the price of the units should go down and not stay steady at $500.
Cornbread78
Member
It's so powerful it can track asteroids... enough said.
SniperHunter
Banned
X One might be weaker but the games looked great at e3 IMO. Why does Forza 5 look so much better than DriveClub? There was so much pop ups and slowdowns in PS4 games....
shinobi602
Member
For having much weaker specs than the PS4, I will say that the Xbone's games don't look much if any different than something we'd see on the PS4. Ryse and Forza 5 looked absolutely spectacular from a visual standpoint.