THE:MILKMAN
Member
I believe it all points it being 54/60 CUs? I'm sure more informed posters will correct me if wrong.
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Rumor: PS5 Pro Codenamed "Trinity" targeting Late 2024 (some alleged specs leaked)
- Thread starter MisterXDTV
- Start date
- Rumor Platform
I believe it all points it being 54/60 CUs? I'm sure more informed posters will correct me if wrong.
In a console I'm assuming it's going to be close to the 7800XT if the clock is at 2.5 GHz and the buswidth is 256 as the 7800XT would only have a 8% bandwidth advantage if the Pro has 18GBs ram speed.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Yes. But better yet,is that PS5pro would be based on RDNA3+. It should have stuff that RDNA3 (aa 7xxs series) lacks.
Technically speaking, the 7700XT.... IS the 7800XT. But yeah, it would be based on this and go from there.
Yes.
Basically... RDNA makeup goes like this.
CU > WG (CU pair) > SA (shader array) > Shader engine (SA pair) > GPU (combination of SEs)
The PS5 has 5 WGS in its SA. The SA is the first level of GPU component grouping. Among other things, WGs in a SA share the same l1 cache. And has 2 SAs per SE. So that 36CU it has is made up of 4 SAs spit between 2 SEs. Oh, and then a WG is disabled in each SE that's how we end up with only 36CU instead of 40.
What that post suggests (or is rumored to suggest), is that the PS5pro would have 8 WGs/SA. Using the same PS5 layout, that would bring the total to 32 WGs. 8/SA, 16/SE and x2SE =32WG total. Disable one per SE and you end up with 30 WG active = 60CU.
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MisterXDTV
Member
No, Henderson leak talked about 18 Gbps chips (actually 18.000 MT/s but it's the same) just like the 7700 XT.
AMD should announce both cards at Gamescom in about 3 hours....
I'm curious about the prices
No, I'm not sure if it was in this thread but the Pro going to have two shader engines with 8 WPG equaling 16+16+16+16 for 64 total CUs or 32 WPGs. If true, Redgaming Tech suggested the PS5 pro could have 64,96 or 128 ROPs.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
We're still missing the fine details and also we don't know how much Sony can get AMD to customise the design or whether for example a full chip (no deactivating CUs for yields) is possible/likely.
Hopefully more solid answers come before years end.
TheRedRiders
Member
I know Tom Henderson mentioned that 1st party studios have gotten their hands on the Pro developer kits, and he said 3rd parties would get it by the end of the year.
Although I remember a good while back a well known Rockstar leaker mentioned the studio had already gotten their hands on the Playstation mid-gen refresh. It does make me think PS5 Pro will be pushed with GTA 6, with some sort of enhanced ray-tracing features.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't expect a repeat of the NEO developer documents PDF leak but hope the likes of DF start to drop crumbs. Maybe when Sony finally reveal the revised PS5 we get a hint or indications about a Pro?
MisterXDTV
Member
Probably the greatest PDF ever released
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I had a copy on my system but it has now disappeared. I'm convinced Cerny hacked my PC and took it back.....
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Don't mess with Sony Ninja. They took the memory of it outta my head.
foamdino
Member
Yeah I thought so - so Viola based off 7700xt (however we know that it will at least have the 256bit bus of the bigger brother as the ps5 already has a 256bit bus and gimping bandwidth to a 192bit bus wouldn't be a sensible move). Also will have RDNA3+ features / sony patented rt acceleration.
TheRedRiders
Member
Thanks for the explanation.
Funny how RGT only leaked his 60 CU information after Keplar's tweet...hmmm.
MisterXDTV
Member
Yeah the Henderson leak is basically an hybrid between 7700 XT and 7800 XT...
The chip will be based off Navi 32 for sure...
Loxus
Member
I still think you all aren't paying attention to the actual 7800 XT chip.
I may be wrong but this makes much more sense to the actual chip. This is done to scale with the 7900XTX.
3 Shader Engines
2 Shader Arrays per Shader Engine
5 WGP per Shader Array
This lines up with the leaked specs from here:
AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics
And it also matches how Navi 22 is half of Navi 21.
I may be wrong but this makes much more sense to the actual chip. This is done to scale with the 7900XTX.
3 Shader Engines
2 Shader Arrays per Shader Engine
5 WGP per Shader Array
This lines up with the leaked specs from here:
AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics
Navi32
- gfx1101 (Wheat Nas)
- Chiplet - 1x GCD + 4x MCD (0-hi)
- 30 WGP (60 legacy CUs, 7680 ALUs)
- 3 Shader Engines / 6 Shader Arrays
- Infinity Cache 64MB (0-hi)
- 256-bit GDDR6
- GCD on TSMC N5, ~200 mm²
- MCD on TSMC N6, ~37.5 mm²
And it also matches how Navi 22 is half of Navi 21.
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IDK,the only thing said about the tempest engine by Mark Cerny is that the TE is a repurposed CU without any cache and DMA'ing data.
I don't know how to post images with my phone but here from the PS5 thread.
Sony Principal Graphics Engineer confirms PS5 has custom architecture that is based on RDNA2. (Update: Read OP)
Rosario Leonardi, Principal Graphics Engineer at Sony Interactive Entertainment Europe, had this interesting tweet... He also confirmed there is no machine learning... You are confusing actual info with some bullshit. There is a full GCN support for hw BC. That's why it's "RDNA1".
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
This is why I am saying that the whole 64CU 8WGs/SA thing makes no sense and doesn't go in line with what Sony has been doing.I still think you all aren't paying attention to the actual 7800 XT chip.
I may be wrong but this makes much more sense to the actual chip. This is done to scale with the 7900XTX.
3 Shader Engines
2 Shader Arrays per Shader Engine
5 WGP per Shader Array
This lines up with the leaked specs from here:
AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics
Navi32
- gfx1101 (Wheat Nas)
- Chiplet - 1x GCD + 4x MCD (0-hi)
- 30 WGP (60 legacy CUs, 7680 ALUs)
- 3 Shader Engines / 6 Shader Arrays
- Infinity Cache 64MB (0-hi)
- 256-bit GDDR6
- GCD on TSMC N5, ~200 mm²
- MCD on TSMC N6, ~37.5 mm²
And it also matches how Navi 22 is half of Navi 21.
For that to happen it would mean Sony is using just 2 SEs (as is the case with the PS5 currently) but increasing the amount of WGs in each from 10 to 16.
That sounds like a lot of unnecessary customization when they already have a viable GPU template in the 7800xt. And a literal replica in the 7700xt.
I am firmly in the camp that the thePS5pro has no more than 54CU active. I just don't buy that whole 60CU active thing.
MisterXDTV
Member
AMD Livestream here:
MisterXDTV
Member
Only $50 difference between the two cards....
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
The PS5pro is probably going to be built on a 4nm node not a 5nm one. So it's not going to be pulling that power anyway.
As I said before, they are basically the exact same card. Off the wafer they are probably identical, one is just made up of the defective chips of the other. That and that during SOC packaging, the 7700xt would have only 3 instead of 4 MCDs. Each MCD adds x2 bus channels and 16MB of infinity cache. And that is exactly what the differences between the two GPUs are.Only $50 difference between the two cards....
Loxus
Member
IDK,the only thing said about the tempest engine by Mark Cerny is it because a CU without any cache and DMA'ing data.
I don't know how to post images with my phone but here from the PS5 thread.
Sony Principal Graphics Engineer confirms PS5 has custom architecture that is based on RDNA2. (Update: Read OP)
Rosario Leonardi, Principal Graphics Engineer at Sony Interactive Entertainment Europe, had this interesting tweet... He also confirmed there is no machine learning... You are confusing actual info with some bullshit. There is a full GCN support for hw BC. That's why it's "RDNA1".www.neogaf.com
Were you expecting less? Maybe something like Vega 64/56 or Radeon 7?
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CloudShiner
Member
7800 XT? So even with lower TDP etc, this thing could be 25TF or thereabouts? If so, then...jeez.
Loxus
Member
This rules out Red Gaming Tech rumors.
It's not 64 ROPs / 2 Shader Engines or 128 ROPs / 4 Shader Engines.
Crispy Gamer
Member
Nah 2 people asked if it was PS5 pro and he liked those tweets
Unless Sony was going with 4 SEs,it seemed like a stretch for the pro to have 128 ROPs.
Also,I was thinking why couldn't Sony go for a "Navi dense" GPU similar to the Series X? If I recall correctly,the PS5 APU is 308mm and the Series X APU is 360mm when both were on 7nm so why couldn't the Series X design work better on a smaller node?
I'm just spit balling ideas, maybe Navi dense in an APU form factor makes it's difficult to reach high clocks so it makes sense to space out the APU components enough.
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Loxus
Member
When Mark Cerny said this,
Also it's easier to fully use 36CUs in parallel than it is to fully use 48CUs when triangles are small it's much harder to fill although CUs with useful work.
I believe he was referring to this.
Also, I never heard of Navi dense.
I'm very skeptical about rgt but that would be the case if we assume a 7800xt aka navi3 will be in the pro no? We can only make assumptions at this point really.
MisterXDTV
Member
Assumptions? Henderson said 60 CUs and Navi 32 is a 60 CU chip.... Just a coincidence?
Navi 42 is not coming out in 2024
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
How are you getting 25TF? The PS5prowoud be at best 18TF (native)by my estimates. Using native to describe the actual non-dual issue TF.
I got that number working on the assumption of PS5pro being a 54CU (7700XTX) GPU. keep in mind, the PS5 is basically a 6700 GPU (both have 36CU). So there is precedent to assume the PS5pro would be based on the 7700XTX, not the 7800XTX.
Secondly, albeit being on a 5nm node, the 7700XTX is a 245W GPU. That usually translates to the actual GPU die pulling around 180 - 200W. The rest goes to stuff like cache, RAM and inefficiencies. This means the PS5 APU, CPU + GPU, could be pulling around 200-220W max. This should be possible if the PS5pro is on a 4nm process. It, however, means that its GPU is likely not going to be clocked anything higher than 2500Mhz.
Why the limitation? Because going to 4nm from 5nm means you can either get higher clocks at a similar power draw, or similar clocks at a lower power draw. The 7700XTX has a boost freq of 2544Mhz. I can see the PS5pro locking that down at 2550Mhz flat.
That puts it at 17.5TF`ish. Not quite 18TF, but close enough.
Sure you can see how much more complicated all this becomes if we somehow work on the assumption that the PS5pro has a 60CU APU...
I don't know what's going on, but the idea of Sony using anything other than a 7700XTX on the PS5pro makes no sense at all. Sony has also always based their PS console on very definitive AMD hardware. ie, you can look at AMD GPU range and see the exact match of every AMD-based PS GPU. The 60CU interpretation of that tweet is suggesting something happens that Sony has never done, does not have to do, and would be stupid of them to do.
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Yes assumptions until anything concrete comes out these are all rumors so far, we got only the most basic of spec outlines and so far we are all making assumptions like rgt etc, the specs can change also and leaks can detail an earlier concept for example the ps5 also had a vega based initial prototype I believe. I don't think they are putting a 7800xt in the pro, the tdp, heat and performance numbers dont matchup not to mention it would still have the pathetic rt perfrormance, people have been looking at the 7800xt specs as some eureka moment as if its confirmation that its definitely the chip thats going to be in the pro.
The consoles launched before rdna2 retail cards as well and had many of the same features, so lets see how this turns out.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I think it would be a mistake to look at the 7800/7700 and say, yes, that's what is going into the Pro. So I agree with you on that.
However, it would be smart to look at the 7700/7800 as a blueprint for what the PS5pro could be. Then coupe that blueprint with a couple of educated guesses, and as usual, we end up being very accurate to what ends up in the box.
Eg. PS5pro would be using 3rd gen AMD RT, 2nd Gen dual-issue compute, second-gen AI cores...etc. All things that exist in the current RDNA3 and would be improved in RDNA4. PS5pro would also likely be on a 4nm process, not 5nm, so it would be drawing even less power. This is why I say it would be based on RDNA3+.
And if you ask me, I strongly believe that the focus of the PS5 would be on better RT and AI-based upscaling. People think the PS5 Pro is angling to be a 4k 60fps machine. Nope, it's not going to be, no more than Sony made the PS4pro a 4k 30fps machine (which it wasn't). The PS4pro was a 4k 30fps CBR machine. The Ps5pro, in my opinion, is going to be a 1440p 60fps AI reconstructed to 4k machine in quality mode. Dropping to 1080p 100fps+ reconstructed to 4k in performance mode.
Audiophile
Gold Member
I struggle to see why they would stick with Zen 2. The IP for Zen 4 is done and any PS5 Pro-specific & PS4/PS5 BC customisations should be minimal and relatively straightforward. The cost is in the die size and Zen 4 will get them much more performance per area/dollar. I don't see any major cost reason to stick with Zen 2, if anything it'd be the opposite.
Taking into account architectural advantages, a clock bump and perf per watt combined with the rumoured GPU bump. PS5 Pro with Zen 4 could bring most 30fps titles up to 60fps w/ some visual enhancements. Pair with the newly announced FSR3 frame gen and 120fps could be the norm.
Taking into account architectural advantages, a clock bump and perf per watt combined with the rumoured GPU bump. PS5 Pro with Zen 4 could bring most 30fps titles up to 60fps w/ some visual enhancements. Pair with the newly announced FSR3 frame gen and 120fps could be the norm.
Physiognomonics
Member
It could be done without impacting performance if they increase the amount of cache by SA.Taking a look at RDNA3.
32WGPs looks so unrealistic.
It would have to be 30WGPs for 54CUs or 36WGPs for 60CUs.
Yes but that card is releasing this year, not next year. I think for PS5 Pro we may get a RDNA4 architecture as a blueprint meaning they may change the number of WGP by SA if they change the structure (like cache amount) by SA. Things are getting spicy indeed! Now I am starting to understand the cryptic Kepler tweet about that nothing would prevent Sony from using 60CUs. And the Henderson leak is still right.AMD RX 7700 XT has 54 CUs, 6 less than the full Navi 32 Chip...
Just like we expect from PS5 Pro
AMD announces Radeon RX 7800 XT 16GB and RX 7700 XT 12GB graphics cards - VideoCardz.com
AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT & RX 7700 XT revealed, designed for 1440p gaming At Gamescom AMD announces its mid-range RX 7000 GPUs. AMD has unveiled two highly anticipated graphics cards: the RX 7800 XT and RX 7700 XT, filling a crucial gap in AMD’s RDNA3 desktop lineup. Although we had some...videocardz.com
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MisterXDTV
Member
If they use the full 60 CU chip, there's nothing left to improve yields....
The alternative is for Sony to ask AMD for a completely new chip.
I don't see that happening
Physiognomonics
Member
They could if they use a 8/7 WGP structure by SA. And they will use a new chip if they use RDNA4 as a blueprint. I'd say the real PS5 Pro GPU could be a possible RX 8700 AMD GPU releasing next year.
See Kepler tweet about the 8/7 thing:
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Mobilemofo
Member
Any opportunity to wear "Sex Panther" (by odeon) and I am so fuckin there.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm the opposite with specs,
Audiophile
. I'm getting more and more convinced we're getting pretty much another PS4 Pro. It is a mid-gen bump not a new gen and if they went ham with Zen 3 and RDNA3.5/4 it would directly affect how much better PS6 can be especially with ever diminishing returns. Also I'm starting to wonder if it would be possible PS5 Pro comes out as early as Spring 2024....
Zen 2 @4.0GHz+ (maybe increase cache?)
60CU/54CU @ ~ 2.5GHz RDNA 2 customised with cherry-picked RDNA3/4 features and Cerny sauce
16GB 18Gbps GDDR6
Talking about blueprints, this morning I was reading the Tweeter thread by Locuza from 2 years ago discussing the console APU die shots and he says they basically employ a RDNA1 design for the render frontend and joked they're all RDNA 1.5!
Given this I would expect PS5 Pro to have a base of the PS5 GPU architecture and then backport whatever new features they want from the newer ones as they did with PS4 Pro.
Audiophile
. I'm getting more and more convinced we're getting pretty much another PS4 Pro. It is a mid-gen bump not a new gen and if they went ham with Zen 3 and RDNA3.5/4 it would directly affect how much better PS6 can be especially with ever diminishing returns. Also I'm starting to wonder if it would be possible PS5 Pro comes out as early as Spring 2024....Zen 2 @4.0GHz+ (maybe increase cache?)
60CU/54CU @ ~ 2.5GHz RDNA 2 customised with cherry-picked RDNA3/4 features and Cerny sauce
16GB 18Gbps GDDR6
Talking about blueprints, this morning I was reading the Tweeter thread by Locuza from 2 years ago discussing the console APU die shots and he says they basically employ a RDNA1 design for the render frontend and joked they're all RDNA 1.5!
Given this I would expect PS5 Pro to have a base of the PS5 GPU architecture and then backport whatever new features they want from the newer ones as they did with PS4 Pro.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
God damn, you are really good at explaining this in a realistic makes sense to my lamen brain, and what a business would probably be looking at to target in a console package kind of way.
Really appreciate it. All your points make a good point of discussion and I think it makes perfect sense.
Physiognomonics
Member
Yes I remember this. Technically both PS5 and XSX are RDNA1.5 GPUs. Stating anything else is just spinning. Even Sony never stated PS5 was true RDNA2. Only RDNA2 based GPU.I'm the opposite with specs,
Zen 2 @4.0GHz+ (maybe increase cache?)
60CU/54CU @ ~ 2.5GHz RDNA 2 customised with cherry-picked RDNA3/4 features and Cerny sauce
16GB 18Gbps GDDR6
Talking about blueprints, this morning I was reading the Tweeter thread by Locuza from 2 years ago discussing the console APU die shots and he says they basically employ a RDNA1 design for the render frontend and joked they're all RDNA 1.5!
Given this I would expect PS5 Pro to have a base of the PS5 GPU architecture and then backport whatever new features they want from the newer ones as they did with PS4 Pro.
But when looking back it's interesting that the first Polaris card architecture was the blueprint for PS4 Pro and had 36 CUs. But we know PS4 Pro also used Vega features.
For PS5 the blueprint for the GPU is RDNA1 (5700 featuring 40CUs, 20WGP) and like Vega they added some features from the next generation of AMD card, here RDNA2.
Seems AMD is designing some of their GPUs in partnership with Sony so we shouldn't be surprised if PS5 Pro is again co-designed by Sony and AMD. So it's likely going to be a new product in 2024 and not using one year old AMD card (the RX 7800) as its blueprint.
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MisterXDTV
Member
It's possible but PS5 Pro specs will be set in stone AT LEAST 6 months before the release date
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Loxus
Member
This implies PS5 chip was finalized in 2019 and released in 2020.
It also resembles RDNA1 but is based on RDNA2.
RDNA1
PS5
If PS5 Pro is releasing next year, it'll be finalized this year, 2023.
Rumors say the chip will be RDNA3.5, so it'll look like RDNA3 but is based on RDNA4.
One could look at the 7800XT chip and see the possible layout of the PS5 Pro chip.
Physiognomonics
Member
The 7800XT chip has being designed in 2022 for this year release. PS5 Pro should get what AMD is designing this year for their 2024 cards: RDNA4 (which Kepler said it would release in 2024).This implies PS5 chip was finalized in 2019 and released in 2020.
It also resembles RDNA1 but is based on RDNA2.
RDNA1
PS5
RDNA2
If PS5 Pro is releasing next year, it'll be finalized this year, 2023.
Rumors say the chip will be RDNA3.5, so it'll look like RDNA3 but is based on RDNA4.
One could look at the 7800XT chip and see the possible layout of the PS5 Pro chip.
We would have had the 7800 XT chip as a baseline IF Pro was released this year. But I bet Sony didn't think that card was good enough for them specifically in regards to RT performance.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
That tweet could just be him hypothesizing. Or it could be true.
Just doesn't make sense to me though, cause that would mean they are asking AMD for a new Chip. Unless AMD has a GPU using 64CUs next year, I don't see that happening. Just all seems unnecessary. lie why do that if they have a perfectly fine and capable chip already?
Also, consider that there are more relevant things to spend extra die space on than ore CUs. Eg. Mor cache for both CPU and GPU. A smaller chip also means less power-hungry. And of course... cheaper.
I think it would be smart to always lean on the assumption that whatever ends up in the PS5pro being the smallest most performant Chip Sony can make. I would be pleasantly surprised if they end up going for 64CU, just do not see that happening. Just seems unnecessary.
CloudShiner
Member
I'd gladly take that, tbh.
MisterXDTV
Member
But the eventual 8700 XT will have much more than 60 CUs, that's the point...
So it's like Loxus said: it will be the 7700 XT/7800 XT design with some features from RDNA 4 and some Cerny secret sauce
Nobody ever said that PS5 Pro will be exactly the same as the GPU cards. It never happened before...
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Sony and Microsoft use custom chips and they aren't off the shelf parts, the XboneX had a total of 44 CUs and 40 active, AMD released the Vega series of GPUs in the same year as the XboneX. I bring that up because the reveal of the XboneX, AMD at that time didn't have a 44/40 CU GPU.
Ronin_7
Member
Nah, nobody knows shit.
Some people already saying 60CUs active at 2700 Mhz frequency for the GPU which would be massive if paired with DLSS3 like Solution from the start.