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[Spring-Loaded]

Well, I doubt there's much of an audience left, so we should probably keep it short. Again, I don't see the point in trying to analyse Warhorse's motivations ad nauseam. My point is that their original claim of not including nonwhites for historical accuracy is, by itself, essentially correct, regardless of what their overall intentions may be. Ultimately, without Warhorse being involved in this discussion, it's just conjecture about a process the details of which none of us were privy to.

I got your point. It's just not at all conclusive for this discussion. you can view it from the standpoint that "it's not not inaccurate," but that isn't the end-all-be-all.

It would be conjecture to say Warhorse did this for a particular reason since no one aside for those at Warhorse knows.

It's not conjecture to say that Warhorse made their decisions for reasons other than historical accuracy, even if they believe that was their reason. We can't know what's going on in their minds, yet even going by what they've said, one can still see how "the possibility of nonwhite people being encounter-able in this situation are too small to be considerable" is not an objective statement. "Too small," is subjective.

Warhorse had other options regarding this design choice that were not in any way invalidated by their criteria for historical accuracy (that criteria being evident in their descriptions of the game proper). They could have traders of other ethnicities and from other places appear in the game. If Warhorse's research shows Bohemia was completely walled off from the outside world and such didn't happen, then that's one thing. If Warhorse demonstrates they don't actually know by giving vague answers, and conceding that "historical accuracy" could be used as justification for either including or excluding nonwhite people, then that's them admitting that, after thinking about it, they could have included some nonwhite people in the game without going against history.

That it took all that time (their back and forth with MedievalPOC, and that tumblr mess) for them to even partially realize inclusion of nonwhite character models in their game wouldn't undermine their historical accuracy goal, that shows a reluctance to accepting the possibility that they're wrong in some way.

And there we have the crux of the matter I suspect; a clash between American racial concepts and the absence of these in European societies like the Czech. This probably ties in with your continuous assertion that Warhorse is doing some sort of harm by their actions; while that would be a natural position for an American to take, it would likely seem quite awkward to a Czech and many other non-Americans. They would not necessarily see the presentation of an all-white population in medieval Europe as harmful in any meaningful way.

I agree the different cultural viewpoints at play are central to the issue. A developer isn't going to put or address something in their game if they never think about it in the first place. It can simply be pure, ignorance. They may have been taught that something is negligible.

If you don't see how Warhorse's way of thinking in this matter is or could be harmful, I'll just say big problems of this nature tend to be the combined effect of smaller, individual instances. On a small scale, these aren't actively offensive or hurtful. The result of Warhorse making their game's characters all white, if assessed in a vacuum, an innocuous aspect of the game's design. For the most part, it reflects what most would accept as being historically accurate. They made a game about what they know, not about what they didn't know. I suspect Warhorse didn't find evidence one way or the other about the existence of nonwhite people in Bohemia, and from there they figured there weren't any, and didn't give it further thought. And none of that is outwardly wrong; it can all be considered understandable, or even justifiable, on its own.

The problem is that developers in this position can attempt to absolve themselves of responsibility (and succeed in the minds of many) for their ignorance. They don't have the time to make those nonwhite people NPC models, so they say "everyone accepts nonwhite people were rare, so let's just chalk it up to historical accuracy. It's not that big a deal anyway." That there were too few and that it's not worth the trouble is their opinion.

The burden of proof is then placed on those who repudiate that statement in anyway. While you've actually addressed MedievalPOC's research and illustrated how you find it misleading, you'd be hard pressed to find any of those tumblr posts linked in the OP that do the same. What you'll definitely find are people who immediately became uncomfortable and defensive of the notion that Bohemia having an entirely all-white society might not be the case. Those posts had nothing to do with problems with research. The very notion receives much more scrutiny than the developers' initial assertion that Bohemia was all white. Even if MedeivalPOC's research is bogus, that their point in regard to the game's design is still lost on people who didn't even pay attention to their research further illustrates the problem.

Applied to games, people don't complain about a given generic, 30-year-old, mild-mannered white everyman/gruff badass in a sea of white everymen badasses because they unconsciously accept it as the norm to some degree. The less common characters who catch people's attention receive more scrutiny solely because they stand out. Nonwhite main characters have their ethnicity questioned, all female characters are sized-up in every way imaginable, and characters like Delsin from that upcoming inFamous game are "douches." People only complain about the white everyman/stoic bald space marine problem as a whole, not on an individual basis, after it's become an epidemic.

That's something that can be harmful. Indirect and unnecessary (even by Warhorse's own standards) exclusion of culture/ethnicity representation, in this game and in hundreds of others, all adds up. It's something worth discussing and it simply shouldn't be written off as insignificant, nor should anyone accept justifications like "historical accuracy" being thrown around at face value.



...On the flip side... if developers (or writers, or filmmakers, or anyone) owns up to their work ultimately being their own responsibility, then there are no excuses for any shortcomings their games might have. that can be applied to to visuals, controls, detail, gameplay, representations of ethnicities in their historical game, and so forth.

If a game is going for a cinematic feel and it doesn't achieve 60 frame per second, the developers can't legitimately say "well, a lower frame rate is more 'filmic' and cinematic" because "cinematic" doesn't necessarily refer to the frame rate of actual film. A game could be 120 fps and still "feel like being in a movie" through gameplay design, pacing, camera control, physics, Etc. Even if those developers believe their own spiel, they're still making that decisions for other reasons (tech/time limitations).

Owning up about their shortcomings would actually be less embarrassing than spouting BS (DmC on consoles being 30 fps because... 60 fps hurts your eyes?) and could help bring attention to certain problems for future developers/hardware designers/publishers. Those people who come after can learn from those failures, but only if they know there was a failure in the first place.

In closing, you and Warhorse might not have thought this matter was worth any thought, which isn't bad on its own. It's the further apprehension to even... humor the idea that something you don't care about might matter is what's really tiring. It happens all the time in the game industry, and elsewhere. I suspect that's what keeps people trying to ascribe others' design choices to "higher powers."

 

[Scipius]

I think we're nearly done here (took a while ). We're not going to agree on whether Warhorse's motivations are honest or not I suppose. You insist they are shirking some responsibility, are doing some unspecified harm and are unwilling to admit they're wrong; I think you're being unfair in your expectations of a small Czech developer.

You ascribe a far greater value to nonwhite representation than they likely would and with them many others. I don't think anyone would argue against the need for a correct representation of nonwhites, but to expect a developer to inject them in any game, even when the location and time period would virtually preclude them being there in the first place, is going beyond being correct into the realm of being politically correct. This was touched upon earlier in the discussion, that an artist should have a creative freedom of vision. In this case, their vision did not necessarily include nonwhites and this is simply not an unreasonable idea, given the history of the region.

To imply there is any hidden motive behind it should really be supported by more than just a general desire of including nonwhites and we've seen that MedievalPOC's attempts at finding such support have not been convincing. I suspect Warhorse could be more sympathetic to this desire than you realise, even if they don't agree it is a necessity for their vision to work. Let's see what the game will look like when it's finished.

 

[Sneds]

For what it's worth, I asked a medieval history PhD student I know about the whole issue. She thought that there would be enough knowledge of other peoples in Bohemia for skin colour not to be an issue.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I think we're nearly done here (took a while ). We're not going to agree on whether Warhorse's motivations are honest or not I suppose. You insist they are shirking some responsibility, are doing some unspecified harm and are unwilling to admit they're wrong; I think you're being unfair in your expectations of a small Czech developer.

We're definitely talking past one another if you think I've said Warhorse should include nonwhite people in their game or that I "expect" them to be able to do everything as well as is humanly possible, w/o regard to budgets/schedules/life. It seems like you've got grasp of the situation, but you still assume all the wrong things about the opposite stance for some reason. That you continue to conflate "intentions" with "actual reasons why," shows that clearly. I'll still not abandon this though because you seem to actually care about this matter on some level. If there's something specific you're unclear on (which seems to be the case), send me a PM and we can keep it shorter there.

To point out how a given endeavor or project could have been improved isn't the same as "expecting too much." Discussing what Warhorse would have had to do to include nonwhite character models in their game isn't the same "expecting" them to do it. It's a critique, something Warhorse and other developers can reflect on when their next games see worldwide release. It's not "this is what you should have done," nor does it assume it would have been possible under the developer's circumstances.

"Warhorse (going by what they've said) could've been accommodating without undermining their vision, yet they've all but said they could never have done so" is the point I'm making. The indignation people have shown toward that statement reflects how some will conflate "criticism" with "attack on creative freedom" which is saddening.

For the most part (though surely someone out there holds this sentiment) no one has said the game should be anything other than what Warhorse envisions. However, when they say they can't do something for a given reason, yet they can do it without defying that reason, someone will point that out.

You ascribe a far greater value to nonwhite representation than they likely would and with them many others. I don't think anyone would argue against the need for a correct representation of nonwhites, but to expect a developer to inject them in any game, even when the location and time period would virtually preclude them being there in the first place, is going beyond being correct into the realm of being politically correct. This was touched upon earlier in the discussion, that an artist should have a creative freedom of vision. In this case, their vision did not necessarily include nonwhites and this is simply not an unreasonable idea, given the history of the region.

The bolded is true in every walk of life, just replace "nonwhite representation" with anything of your choosing.

Again, this is you admitting you've assumed everyone who doesn't share your stance believes "Warhorse should have included nonwhite characters because that's the right thing to do." If Warhorse doesn't even think about nonwhite people's representation in their game, then that's all the more reason to bring that to their attention. There is no harm in spreading awareness, unless you subscribe to the thought that doing so is to condemn them as awful, racist people, or that bringing that up is a sign that one has "an agenda" to vilify people.

If they concede that people from other nations traveled through and/or lived in Bohemia, why is it so out of question to humor the possibility of putting them in such a game? Why must this matter be so polarized, in that if you believe it would be reasonable to include some nonwhite foreigners in Kingdom Come, you must also believe the game is actively defies history by only featuring white character models? Why the resistance?

To imply there is any hidden motive behind it should really be supported by more than just a general desire of including nonwhites and we've seen that MedievalPOC's attempts at finding such support have not been convincing. I suspect Warhorse could be more sympathetic to this desire than you realise, even if they don't agree it is a necessity for their vision to work. Let's see what the game will look like when it's finished.

"Hidden motive" would suggest malice or deceit. What I've actually said (repeatedly) is that, going by their responses, Warhorse has falsely asserted that there was nothing else they could've done, and they likely believe that. That doesn't make it true. They still had a choice, even considering their vision.

You say Warhorse wouldn't think this inclusion is a necessity. Essentially the reason this thread exists is because someone asked about the possibility that Warhorse could have included this in the game without compromising their vision. Not that it's necessary; they either could've included it or not included it while still being in accordance to history. That's the point being reinforced throughout this thread. No one's demanding that Warhorse change their game.

You say there should be a better reason for including nonwhite people in the game than simply wanting them in. If that's the case, what's a good enough reason to decide to forgo including them at all? If the answer is "history," then why do they never answer with any reference to history?

They don't present their history because, as you've suggested, they probably don't care enough about this matter to have conducted any real research on it, specifically. I've walked through why they almost certainly didn't earlier in this thread and why that's important (though you've constantly tried to downplay that). And that alone isn't bad.

However, the problem is that Warhorse, you and others don't believe it's worth consideration. Using the term "politically correct" as a way of voicing your exasperation from you or others being "pressured" to be fair suggests you're not focusing on real issue. You still believe this is a matter of a developers artistic vision being wrestled from them, as is evident in your post. You also don't see how improper representation on a small scale adds up when it occurs everywhere, nor do you think it's an actual problem.

The game's already decently far into development. Even if nothing can be changed in the game, it's something for developers to consider in future projects. It would be nice if people didn't assume it was just annoying politically correctness though.

 

[Scipius]

Oh, very well, another round; sorry for the late reply

We're definitely talking past one another if you think I've said Warhorse should include nonwhite people in their game or that I "expect" them to be able to do everything as well as is humanly possible, w/o regard to budgets/schedules/life. It seems like you've got grasp of the situation, but you still assume all the wrong things about the opposite stance for some reason.

No, that's not what I'm saying. My point was that you are arguing for an unrealistic (and somewhat unfair) level of "due diligence" on the part of Warhorse. You maintain that their claim of historical accuracy is not enough of a valid reason, to which I've argued that this claim is not unreasonable, considering the preservation of historical information and the actual evidence that has survived, let alone any cultural differences that come into play.

You're more interested in the wider aspect of how game developers in general should approach this issue and that's fine. I would probably agree with you on much of it, but this discussion is primarily about the case of Kingdom Come and even though I would agree with your argument in general, I disagree on the relevance of it in this case, considering the context.

Why must this matter be so polarized, in that if you believe it would be reasonable to include some nonwhite foreigners in Kingdom Come, you must also believe the game is actively defies history by only featuring white character models? Why the resistance?

I hope you're not including this discussion in your qualification, but that does seem to be par for the course in these types of debates. I don't consider Reddit or Tumblr to be particularly good venues for considered opinions in any case.

You say there should be a better reason for including nonwhite people in the game than simply wanting them in. If that's the case, what's a good enough reason to decide to forgo including them at all? If the answer is "history," then why do they never answer with any reference to history?

They did refer to history, it's just that you expect them to prove a negative. You haven't demonstrated that their claim is necessarily false, only that they can't possibly know for sure. Which is true enough, but not really relevant for their claim of historical accuracy.

However, the problem is that Warhorse, you and others don't believe it's worth consideration. Using the term "politically correct" as a way of voicing your exasperation from you or others being "pressured" to be fair suggests you're not focusing on real issue. You still believe this is a matter of a developers artistic vision being wrestled from them, as is evident in your post. You also don't see how improper representation on a small scale adds up when it occurs everywhere, nor do you think it's an actual problem.

You assume Warhorse or myself or others don't believe it's worth consideration, but in fact, there is only a disagreement in this particular case that is evident. Suppose Warhorse had answered that they were aware of this issue (which is what you want), but had still decided against it on grounds of historical accuracy (which you claim is wrong, but isn't). What would your reply be in that case?

Finally, the current vision for this game is simply not an improper representation to the extent that you believe. While "improper representation" can indeed be a problem, I say again, you are applying your general ideal of what game developers should consider to a specific case where it doesn't seem to make much sense when considering the context. That seems to be the key disagreement. Do you believe your interpretation of what "proper representation" is, is really universally applicable without exception?