the "critical response to their criticism" that people here are having issues with are death threats
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People of colour in Kingdom Come: Deliverance - A discussion (Read the OP)
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the "critical response to their criticism" that people here are having issues with are death threats
It is a game. A role-playing game and not a dissertation. We are not students of a post-graduate degree or aiming for a doctoral. We are gamers.
If your aim is to create a historical accurate game, then ultimately you would have to research for three to seven years in order to find the ratio between body sizes and shapes, hairstyles, facial characteristics, race, colors, ethnicity, social status, religion and so on and so forth to justify every single customization option available to the gamer and lack of.
The story description is a "son of a blacksmith in Bohemia". That is it. So there is no reason for me not to make my character super small, Asian and Catholic. Even if the chance is 0.toinfinity there is still no reason not to be allowed to make my character as I see fit as long as it bounds to realistic expectations; he is a man and he is human.
Allowing my character to be exceptionally different than the rest of the expected Bohemians [strange tattoos and piercings for example] only adds up to my epic journey [an outcast fighting for law and order]. On the other hand, when you give out a blank page; son of a blacksmith in Bohemia, you cannot expect gamers not to criticize the lack of customization tools/options.
The problem lies within Warhorse - They should have either made a specific character; specific name, race, ethnicity, religion, body and facial characteristics or not a specific character. This middle man road of sort of customizing and sort of not is not really needed in a game because the main description of the character is too general and too vague.
I am not personally saying that I will not play this game or the fact of not being able to play a color person or a woman is a negative, but at the end of the day I still think they should have handle this differently, with a chance to debate with the community and receive feedback on whether there setting up for instance an funding goal of 900,000 to include further customization options would be something the community would back up.
Not sure if you see my point.
I really don't Authority. You're saying either there should be NO freedom (predefined like Nathan Drake) or almost UNLIMITED freedom (super small Asian Catholic etc.) what kind of a restriction is that to impose? Why shouldn't a game developer feel free to chose a middle path if that is what fits their vision? What is wrong with coming up with a concept that requires a 'typical generic to that time and period' starting character?
captainpat
Member
I'm pretty sure RE4 doesn't play on harmful stereotypes on Spanish people like RE5 did for black people.
It has no relevance here. Nor your presence, either.
Brilliant contribution. During your time off, feel free to study up.
GraveHorizon
poop meter feature creep
Day one DLC.
Day one purchase.
Those dirty shirt-stealing Africans.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What the actual fuck? The game looks nothing like those.... for one thing, Chivalry and War of the Roses are multiplayer deathmatch games (the latter being F2P) and this is a single-player RPG. -_- Is this a satire post?
Uh, no. The devs have stated that the story revolve around the son of a blacksmith in Bohemia, and have not given many more details, but that doesn't mean "anything goes after that". Obviously this blacksmith's son is someone who has the potential to become a knight, a leader of a militia or army, and mingle with nobility (something the devs have explicitly said, btw), which would not be believable if he were an Asian bloke with strange tattoos. Remember, it's meant to be a realistic medieval setting. Sure, he's going to be rather exceptional, as most commoners in Bohemia did not become knights or nobles, because it's still a game and an epic adventure, but it's still believable enough if he's a native Bohemia-born man. If he's got strange hoop piercings in his nose, his ambitions are going to be limited to becoming a court jester at best.
Hell, A Song of Ice and Fire is fantasy and set in an imaginary world (but a world with significant similarities to a realistic medieval Europe), so less realistic than this game, and even there, a highborn dwarf struggles in life, is constantly mocked and isn't taken seriously, despite being born in a powerful family. Said dwarf has stated that if he had been lowborn, he would no doubt have been thrown into a well and left to die, or at best he'd make a living as a circus freak. People were not exactly tolerant in medieval times.
I don't see why that would be the case. Character creators vary a lot in RPGs, and the level of customization should fit the game's tone.
I actually did a paper on POC in Flemish Art.
They were extremely rare freedmen. It'd be interesting to see them in the game because they are so rare and under researched, but I understand the creators' intent. Mongols would be really interesting too, since I honestly had no clue.
Most stories in the past seemed to focus exclusively on the upperclass, which made it feel like other types of people didn't exist. I'm not sure if that is realistic or a little blind sided. Either way, there's no reason to shoehorn stuff that doesn't make sense.
Also I can't be like...Joan of Arc or anything? :/
They were extremely rare freedmen. It'd be interesting to see them in the game because they are so rare and under researched, but I understand the creators' intent. Mongols would be really interesting too, since I honestly had no clue.
Most stories in the past seemed to focus exclusively on the upperclass, which made it feel like other types of people didn't exist. I'm not sure if that is realistic or a little blind sided. Either way, there's no reason to shoehorn stuff that doesn't make sense.
Also I can't be like...Joan of Arc or anything? :/
Discussion of the developers' motivations is now harassment? Give me a break. The only people in this scenario who have been harassed are those who dared ask the question.
Did someone say it should look like Saints Row?
It seems strange to me that anyone would feel that a small developer's work should not face questions or criticism because they're small. Especially on a topic that has nothing to do with technical/man power limitations. Do you think it's equally unfair to criticize depictions of race or gender in the work of a novelist? I mean, it's just one person after all.
I never used the word "harassment". You did. I said "haranguing", which is accurate.
And, as I said, it is quite pointless to even ask the question if you won't accept the answer, isn't it?
Well, it's apparently not okay for it to look like rural Bohemia in the Middle Ages, so I don't know what else the complainers could want.
Did I say a small developer shouldn't face criticism? Or did I say that attacking their vision and their depiction of their own cultural history based on some remarkably ignorant, creationist-level argumentation would be frowned upon if the developers didn't have the misfortune of being "white"? Pretty sure it was the latter.
But yes, in previous controversies developer size has led to a more sympathetic hearing. Tons of people took up for Vanillaware during the Dragon's Crown festival of concern trolling because they are a small company making niche games while big AAA games from large publishers (who, perhaps not coincidentally, spend a lot of money on ad space) can sexualize female characters just as much without raising a fuss in the games media.
The only reasons Tyrion is treated like shit is because Martin wants it that way. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. It would be nice if fantasy authors sometimes remembered they were writing FANTASY and not faux-realistic medieval rape simulators. If the best you can do is base your fantasy on your probably not very accurate perception of history then you should go write in another genre. "Thats how it was back then mang" is not an excuse because your book/game is not set "back then."
As for this game, watch my surprise when its quest for historical accuracy doesn't get much further than skin colour.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I didn't say historical accuracy with regards to ASoIaF, I said realism and believability. Westeros is a world largely inspired by medieval Europe. Sure, GRRM could have chosen to create world where dwarves were not discriminated against, but that's not the kind of world he wanted to build. Are you criticizing him for making a believable and realistic world now?
What the fuck am I reading now...?
Bad faith much? Wow.
93xfan
Banned
I agree. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt in situations like this.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
So just because it's a video game it means the developers have to put in whatever nonsense they can think of? They can't make a period piece WHICH ALSO happens to be a video game? Is there no difference between Gladiator & 300 in terms of historical accuracy? Can't there be a similar difference in accuracy between Kingdom Come & Assassin's Creed. Because we are gamers we can't have serious realistic portrayals of history? What about classic RTS games like Age Of Empires, was that dissertation? Did you get a doctorate for playing it because of the accuracy?
How do you know they did not do so much research? Easy for them since they live in what is considered modern Bohemia. Also if I am making game based on Montezuma, it doesn't take much research to know that there were no Chinese or Japanese people milling with the Aztecs. There were no Greeks in King Akbar's court either, no research required to know that.
Yes there is a reason. They are trying to make a period piece. Making your character a 4 foot tall Asian dwarf is akin to the movie Black Knight being sold as a serious documentary about medieval life. Are all video games kiddy jokes to you? Can they never be serious and realistic? The protagonist would be the most important part of that realism and should accurately portray a person who would have lived in those times and at that place. Not mention he should have been able to move among nobles and Knights with ease.
You don't get it do you? You are not just some "Son of a Blacksmith", you are Orlando Bloom's character from Kingdom of Heaven and like him destined to be part of and catalyst for great things that are about to happen. You have to BE the kind of person who can one day influence noble's and rub shoulder's with Knights. Asian midgets did not get to do those things. They did not exist. I am sorry but back in Central Bohemia you were little more than dirt on a noble's shoe sole if you were not at the very least a white male of the working class.
Piercings & Tattoos? I'm sorry but goth culture is a recent invention. You are not playing a circus freak who would be drowned in a well as a child because your orthodox parents thought you were a demon because you look weird. Again, think Orlando Bloom. Your 4 foot tall Asian with piercings and tattoo's would be thrown in the darkest dungeon the moment you dared even approach a noble who would be horrified by your appearance.
Epic journey? Outcast fighting law and order? THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU!
This isn't The Witcher or Dragon Age, it's a damn period piece or at least trying to be
However, I will recommend black slave and circus freak campaign DLC's to the developers since you seem to want to play as them so much.
No the problem lies with you. The premise of the game is that it's a historically accurate period piece which you play a white male of the working class who through a mix of cunning and guile rises through the ranks until Kings & Queens's of the land consult him for advice. You have to be someone approachable, a member of the pure race so that won't end up as a slave. You have to be part of the 99% of that era who one day joins the 1%. Non-white people unfortunately were never part of that 99%. Hell I'd imagine even height plays a part since someone with gigantism or dwarfism would be treated like a freak or fall deathly ill from lack of medical science.
Reality check bucko. In Medieval Bohemia, if you're a woman you are a baby making machine that is little more than property. If you are non-white then you must be a slave. If you have an unusual face, hands, legs, height then you are branded as freak and an affront to god. Harsh stuff but true. Even still they have a SEPARATE female campaign where you play as a female thief who helps the protagonist. If she dared to show up as a knight they would laugh her off at best or worse rape her. She could be a blacksmith but never rise above that station unless a noble married her.
But ya, go on ahead pretending everything in the world is equal and there is no such thing as racism, classicsm, sexism etc
Ridley Scott is so dumb! Why no POC in Gladiator? Did Marcus have to be white? Why couldn't Joaquin Phoenix's character have been a female Indian?
I'm not criticsing him at all. I'm criticising fantasy fans who use the "historical accuracy" excuse.
My tangent about fantasy authors who use a poor excuse for their misogyny and lack of imagination.
I am not calling the developers racist. I'm saying their excuse of historical accuracy will soon be forgotten after your character can survive the most grievous wound, fight against ten soldiers at once, run around the game world and never get tired etc. Don't hide behind bad excuses that don't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny. Just tell the truth, we are making the game we want to make and I'm sorry if you don't like it.
I hope Medieval POC aren't put off by those jackasses and carry on doing what they're doing. Their is nothing wrong with wanting people to be fairly depicted in games, especially if it's historically correct.
It really does my nut in on how aggressive some people are to other people who are different in any sense, whether it's gender, sexuality or race. It feels like gamers are amongst the worst when it comes to this. It's really depressing.
Best of luck to Medieval POC
It really does my nut in on how aggressive some people are to other people who are different in any sense, whether it's gender, sexuality or race. It feels like gamers are amongst the worst when it comes to this. It's really depressing.
Best of luck to Medieval POC
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Joan was very lucky she was speaking to the oppressed French people who had been at war for nearly a 100 years and claimed to be a messenger from God. She managed to unite all of France under her banner despite the common prejudices at the time because EVERYONE wanted to kick British ass regardless of who was leading them. It was the British who ultimately killed her and yet in modern times both nations revere her as a valiant heroine. Truly a legend of a different age.
Unfortunately in this game you play some random dude trying to make ends meet and sees a way out in the form of becoming a Knight
But do you agree that the protagonist HAS to be a white male? You can have Samurai walking down the streets if you admit this simple fact.
A certain degree of realism in the setting doesn't imply that the same degree of realism has to be applied to the game mechanics. It's not all or nothing. Moreover, the consistency of a fictional world happens on different layers.
As I said some pages ago: if you have magic doesn't mean that it makes sense to have laser guns as well. Different works have different internal rules. For example, some fantasy books have a semi-realistic historically-based social setting and a non realistic set of characters and/or supernatural elements. Others have non realistic setting and no supernatural elements etc. etc. On top of that, there are the conventions of the genre: most people don't suspend their disbelief when a character is shot in an arm and moves that arm five seconds later, even if that is unrealistic. It's just something that we accept because it's a known trope.
Lack of imagination or misogyny have nothing to do with this. The argument "if you have a health bar then you can have a woman knight" doesn't make much sense.
Why does it?
The Smoking Bun
Banned
From the article:
Thanks, so if the protagonist of this game has tattoos, he would most likely be branded pagan/heretic and jailed because it's set during the dominance of Christianity! I am sure no one like that would be ever allowed to become a Knight
Because it's set in Medieval Europe, more specifically a very small part of Central Bohemia where seeing POC was as likely as a Giraffe and for the same reasons too, a curiosity brought from a foreign land to show off to his noble friends. The protagonist will/can become a Knight which had severe restrictions and was controlled by the Church, white male would be the bare minimum. I guess the Thief class can be played by anyone but would be unfair to people who want to play as POC's since they will be limited by the prejudices of the time. Can't say much about bards although there were probably no female ones. So ya, white male = all options. Ethnic/Female/Non-Noble = very limited options
True. Anyone can express a desire. But there is nothing wrong in developers refusing to create their characters according to diversity criteria either. There is no obligation to have a balanced mix of races and genders in a videogame.
We agree on both counts. (Though a wider spectrum of characters past white male would be nice).
What is wrong is those people who do want to be represented being attacked by jackasses on the internet, and being told to kill themselves.
That their, is where the problem is.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Well, if they're going for realism, there wouldn't be many people of visibly different ethnicity, in that region, at that time period. Granted, they do mention the mongols, which would probably be a fairly realistic depiction.
Also, if you're playing as a combat role, it wouldn't be very realistic to play a woman.
Yes, I know, this isn't fair exactly, but the middle ages in Europe wasn't exactly a shining example of diversity and equality. At least, not be today's standards at the very least. Still, I do understand the sentiment.
Shame some people have to get so blasted obnoxious when talking about their opinions though. That one guy on Reddit was definitely out of line.
Also, if you're playing as a combat role, it wouldn't be very realistic to play a woman.
Yes, I know, this isn't fair exactly, but the middle ages in Europe wasn't exactly a shining example of diversity and equality. At least, not be today's standards at the very least. Still, I do understand the sentiment.
Shame some people have to get so blasted obnoxious when talking about their opinions though. That one guy on Reddit was definitely out of line.
TatteredHat
Member
Reading through that tumblr blog, I'm not convinced that the existence of black people in various works of medieval art can be considered proof that there was a significant non-white population in Bohemia.
Having said that though, I find it unlikely that there were no black people there at all and I think it might be interesting if the social interactions between the various races at that time was properly depicted. The medieval era isn't exactly known for being a humane period though, and I can understand that the developer wouldn't want to burn their hands on something like cross-race depictions in their game.
Having said that though, I find it unlikely that there were no black people there at all and I think it might be interesting if the social interactions between the various races at that time was properly depicted. The medieval era isn't exactly known for being a humane period though, and I can understand that the developer wouldn't want to burn their hands on something like cross-race depictions in their game.
At the same time, there's no real drawback to it as long as it makes sense in context and everyone is portrayed fairly. If anything, Warhorse could make the game more interesting and more authentic if they looked over the issue again and gave all the historical possibilities a fair shake. I think it's awesome when a period piece winds up being historically accurate in ways that people weren't necessarily expecting, like a Western that portrays the fact that there were actually a lot of black cowboys instead of going with a standard whitewashed cast.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
12 Years a Slave as a game. Someday the world will be mature enough to experience that. Press A to beg for mercy
Wow, you've never seen Star Wars?
I have no problem with this. But funnily enough the one thing that can very rarely ever be changed is how women are treated in your average fantasy novel. It must be like medieval Europe or its just totally unrealistic! Oh yeah but dragons and shooting lighting bolts from your arse, that's all cool. This is off topics anyways so I'll leave just leave it at that.
The Smoking Bun said:
Yes bro
I haven't read one message here justifying aggression and "go kill yourself" messages. I want to believe everyone agrees that that is bad.
Absolutely. I just think it'd be much more effective to promote and financially reward creators who do that in a meaningful and creative way rather than asking developers "why there isn't a diverse cast?".
The Smoking Bun
Banned
12 Years a Slave as a game. Someday the world will be mature enough to experience that. Press A to beg for mercy
My ideal situation. They could easily depict how females were oppressed, hell the female pro-tag will probably talk about it. You can have a Asian Marco Polo of sorts or traders who speak of the silk route and have some Chinese helping hands who the white people look at like their aliens
My ideal situation. They could easily depict how females were oppressed, hell the female pro-tag will probably talk about it. You can have a Asian Marco Polo of sorts or traders who speak of the silk route and have some Chinese helping hands who the white people look at like their aliens
Why so?
Yes, it's cool when that happens. But I don't think that is the case here. It's just that this game is not set in a multicultural society.
Minister of the Dog
Member
They have done nothing to prove their point, they just posted some paintings and people jumped on the bandwagon of "hey look at that, there must've been black people in medieval Bohemia!" We have already discussed that much within this very thread.
Again I agree. So why can't the developers manage that? I can't tell if you're arguing against me mate, we seem to be wanting the same things here. I never said that developers should do it just to fill a quota!
Eh, I'm not so sure. If Warhorse is bending history enough to set up their protagonist and give them a dramatic individual story, they could just as well err on the side of diversity within the bounds of what would be historically plausible.
Night Angel
Member
Which including a POC in their game might not be. Which has been argued to death.
TatteredHat
Member
While the art work doesn't prove that there was a significant black population in that area, there must've been some sort of interaction between the various cultures for those paintings to exist, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that some black people ended up in Bohemia somehow.
Regardless, they would have been extremely rare, and I'm not sure such a tiny group of people warrants representation within a video game that is trying to be historically accurate.
Sometimes I wonder if people spend more time playing games or arguing about those games. When people get this invested in looking for controversy, they'll find one whether it's a big issue or not.
Did these same people send threats to the crew behind some of the biggest medieval movies?
Did these same people send threats to the crew behind some of the biggest medieval movies?
Right. What I'm really saying is this that Warhorse should research the topic a little more, just for the hell of it. If their initial assessment seems to be correct, and the presence of non-white people is unlikely enough that their inclusion in the game doesn't fit level of historicity they're aiming for, MedievalPoC raised an interesting point but they should probably yield. If Warhorse finds that the area actually may have been more diverse than they previously thought, that's an interesting idea and they could very well run with it.
Nope. Not arguing. Discussing.
As a side note: when the discussion "why can't the developers manage that?" comes up I think lots of people don't consider that when it comes to character creation and narrative development, different authors have different skills. Some are good at writing female characters, other are better at male characters, some are good at making old characters etc. Plus, many people create based on their own experience. And not everyone grew up in contact with many different kind of people. So for some authors it would just feel clumsy and disingenuous to create a diverse cast.
I think you're confused as to who is sending threats.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
It would be nice if someone would remove "controversy" from the title since there really isn't one, and it seems to be prompting people to post without reading the OP (or understanding it).
I think diversity in media is important for very real reasons though not simply because I want diversity for diversity sake.
People really underestimate how little racial diversity is in slavic contries, exspecialy for non caucasian races . We are not talking about the western evropean countries here, who had huge presence around the world and colonies. Central and eastern europe was far more secluded from the world, and there was far little migration to them over time, due to them being porer countries. Can't blame the migrants, since why would anyone want to migrate here, if there are much bether and richer countries in europe :/
I live in a ex comunistic slavic country and i have only seen a black person twice in my entire life, on both of the ocasion in the capitol city. And this is in todays modern times.
The average Bohemian peasant in the medival time has probably never ever seen an non white person in his entire life.
Let me rephrase that then: Were there controversies when a lot of the medieval movies of our time were all a bunch of white people?
Threats suck from all sides though. This just seems like such a weird thing to turn into an issue if they're going for a period correct game. If they did approach the topic while wanting to remain accurate, it could be an utter disaster based on how they portray them. It's a lose-lose when people are just looking for controversy. If they were making a game in a very diverse region, it's one thing but we're talking about Bohemia...
Reading MedievalPOC about this issue, I think this part is pretty weird:
"Its not only about your source inspiration, its also about who you expect to play the game and enjoy your creative project. Its about who you think are important people to represent, to make those people want to play it."
source: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75600754194/medievalpoc-in-the-face-of-harassment-states-the
This part implies that a creator should think of what part of the audience to represent so they want to play it. I find it quite dumb, to be honest. It's as if the point of a work of art/culture/media is to represent people. Not tell a story, not give a setting to explore. And there's a certain irony that, if you reason that way, every game set in a non-Western country should have a white persone as the lead cause, hey, that's the biggest market, so you want to represent them, right?
I guess Oddworld was really the worst. The put some weird non human in it. How can people feel represented by that?
"Its not only about your source inspiration, its also about who you expect to play the game and enjoy your creative project. Its about who you think are important people to represent, to make those people want to play it."
source: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75600754194/medievalpoc-in-the-face-of-harassment-states-the
This part implies that a creator should think of what part of the audience to represent so they want to play it. I find it quite dumb, to be honest. It's as if the point of a work of art/culture/media is to represent people. Not tell a story, not give a setting to explore. And there's a certain irony that, if you reason that way, every game set in a non-Western country should have a white persone as the lead cause, hey, that's the biggest market, so you want to represent them, right?
I guess Oddworld was really the worst. The put some weird non human in it. How can people feel represented by that?
This is actually a pretty fascinating discussion and it's rather unfortunate that things took a turn for the Internet. All things considered, I think it's fair to say that Warhorse adopted a somewhat incurious attitude towards the question of diversity in the setting/time period.
At the same time, MPOC's reply was more than a little disingenuous, as simply listing off a few works of art that feature POCs without exploring the subject, context or subtext of the works does nothing at all to address the question at hand. Meanwhile, the literary sources cited have little to say about the racial makeup of the regions, focusing rather more on ethnic and especially religious divisions.
In the end, while neither side really bothered to support their assertions, it's silly to suggest that in the absence of definitive proof, both possibilities should be considered equally likely. Warhorse could choose not to include a POC in the game and correctly assert that probability would argue against finding a POC in a 9km^2 subsection of 15th century Bohemia. However, Warhorse could also choose to include a POC in the game and correctly assert that while such individuals were uncommon, source material exists which suggests that POCs could, in fact, be found in the general vicinity around the general time that the game is set.
At the same time, MPOC's reply was more than a little disingenuous, as simply listing off a few works of art that feature POCs without exploring the subject, context or subtext of the works does nothing at all to address the question at hand. Meanwhile, the literary sources cited have little to say about the racial makeup of the regions, focusing rather more on ethnic and especially religious divisions.
In the end, while neither side really bothered to support their assertions, it's silly to suggest that in the absence of definitive proof, both possibilities should be considered equally likely. Warhorse could choose not to include a POC in the game and correctly assert that probability would argue against finding a POC in a 9km^2 subsection of 15th century Bohemia. However, Warhorse could also choose to include a POC in the game and correctly assert that while such individuals were uncommon, source material exists which suggests that POCs could, in fact, be found in the general vicinity around the general time that the game is set.