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People of colour in Kingdom Come: Deliverance - A discussion (Read the OP)
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Justice is not exactly a objective term as you think it is. As many atrocities in human history were made because it was' justice' and 'save the people we are hurting'.
Are you comparing those atrocities to people asking for diversity in a video game?
The Smoking Bun
Banned
But then Kingdom Come is supposed to be a fairly accurate representation of a tiny section of Bohemia let alone Europe. Your created character has a detailed back-story, having an ethnic character would require a different back-story to justify his presence. Also, would you like it if you were limited from many of the jobs/occupations you can have in the game just because you're not white? Would you like to have the ruler's in the game's turn you away just because your skin is different? Actually that would be great and give people some perspective.
You know what, The Witcher series is also supposed to be set in that region. And that's a fantasy game and still it's accurate.
On the other hand if Kingdom Come 2 is about the Mughal rulers of India, I want zero white people to be there. Maybe some East Asians (Silk Route). Exception for Marco Polo
I do remember that. How is it relevant to MedievalPoC, Warhorse, and Deliverance?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Didn't say that, like at all. Nice way of evade the point.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I agree, and that's why it is problematic for people who are opposed to any kind of recognition, equality, or whatever to try and smash everything into a "social justice crusade" box.
More often than not, efforts to raise awareness or even ask a simple question are seen as attacks on the majority by the majority members with something to lose, or those who think they have something to lose.
None, but I was asked why SJW types are not worth listening to. Some examples:
"Race mixing destroys biodiversity and LITERALLY makes entire ethnic groups disappear!"
Or how being able to only breed male+female pokemon somehow erases gay people.
Maybe about how it's "thin privilege" because there were no fat people in Les Miserables.
Or how your doctor telling you to lose weight is fat-phobic.
Or maybe them telling a man who got raped that it's impossible for him to get raped and how he should enjoy the experience?
Or when one attacked a pregnant woman for saying that she wanted a healthy child?
Misterinenja
Member
Back-story shouldn't matter at that point. Then make a predetermined main character to play as.
If there's a character creator available you should be able to make a character representing your (or whatever you want) ethnicity.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
The problem is that some people respond with the same tactics as "the other side" that disagree with them. Like there is two hive mind competing with each other.
The problem is that you're characterizing everyone who disagrees with you on an unrelated issue as completely unreasonable. What some random people on the internet have said about a bevy of other topics has nothing to do with this one.
Whether people are right or wrong depends on the merit of their arguments, not the group you're trying to lump them into. What you're doing right now is the equivalent of saying "LOL LEAVE IT TO A LIBRUL/CONSERVATIVE TO SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT" in a political discussion without actually addressing why you think the other person is wrong.
Pollux
Member
Had not seen any of those before...some people are just crazy.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So you're saying that neither hoping for equality nor refusing it are either good or bad because some proponents on both sides are equally ill-mannered?
...
Genuinely a bad post. I'll say it again, if you think creation of art happens in a vacuum, and that you can make whatever you want without people expressing their opinion of your art, then you should probably keep your art to yourself, because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how art and culture work.
Again, I'm explaining myself because I was asked why I think SJW types are not worth listening to.
I'm not cute sure why that's relevant to this context but the statement itself isn't wrong. It's rather unfortunate that people who may just ask a question gets put in this "crazy sjw" box by other people who are apathetic to the question that's being asked. It's a silly thing to do, you're basically saying this person is unreasonable because they care about an issue you don't see.
Night Angel
Member
It's not the backstory he's worried about, its historical accuracy. If the PC was a POC, it would require entirely different dialogue/reactions from the NPCs in the game to remain accurate (probably more work than the dev can handle). There is no rule that a character creator needs to include race; in this game, it would go directly against one of the developer's stated goals.
What you're doing is dismissing people out of hand by asserting that they must belong to a group you consider to be wrong about everything.
Even if we're talking about the same people, you thinking they've said unreasonable things about other topics doesn't make them wrong about this one. You get how that works?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
These opinions clearly have shit exactly to do with social justice or even sane balance.
Misterinenja
Member
I think there way more ways to be historically accurate than making every NPC gasp in astonishment every time they see a POC character made by player to represent himself.
I find the inclusion of whites-only character creation ridiculous and it has nothing to do with historical accuracy in this case.
Minister of the Dog
Member
I know it's a long read, but I have tried to prove that what you claim is not the case on the previous page. If you could show me where I'm wrong, I'm all ears.
Precisely! This is why they are called SJWs.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Exactly. Unless we live in a Fantasy universe where racism doesn't exist, you have to admit that the people there would be very protective of their way of life and feel threatened by this dark skinned foreigner who just showed up one day. A character creator can be as wide or narrow as the developer pleases and no rule for including certain features.
If the creator allows us to create the various sub-races that WERE predominant in that era and place then it's a success. There is a reason that the female PC is a completely different character with her own campaign. Women were treated as little more than property and house wives, many were thieves but none were Knights. Princesses and Queens were lucky women born into a noble family and that could have been another campaign. The Lady and the Knight. Also, the Lady would never be allowed to marry the Knight
I actually want them to show the ugliness of the time. Can you imagine 12 Years a Slave as a game? Would people be offended despite that being EXACTLY what many people of African descent and their ancestors went through? Dr. King would probably call it educational and raising awareness.
Why is it unacceptable to allow this certain amount of freedom? It would be okay if you had to play as this particular Czech male, but if you are allowed a large degree of customization of your Czech male character, then it's a bad thing? That seems odd.
Hashtag: microaggression
Cool. Now all you have to do is explain why the issues being raised about Deliverance are completely unreasonable and we can call it a day. The arguments themselves, not the people making them.
Misterinenja
Member
Again I'm not arguing about historical accuracy in this case.
If the game would include, for example black villagers, it would not be historically accurate.
But including a character creator in a role-playing game where you can't make your avatar look like yourself is ridiculous. That shouldn't be a thing that ruins the game for someone. Ridiculous.
There have been plenty of reasons posted in this thread and on this page alone.
It's not a character creator, it's a character customization.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So to insult a group of people whose opinions you don't agree with, you call them something that has nothing to do with what they are actually about while simultaneously robbing a phrase of any real meaning?
Logic
Suzushiiro
Banned
As a regular reader/commenter of TumblrInAction it pisses me off that the article in the OP:
A)Calls it the "Death to SJWs" subreddit
and
B)Assumes that the hate mail is from there when rule number 1 of TiA is:
Yeah, it's very possible that the sender of the message is someone from TiA who broke the rule, but they're clearly not representative of the whole subreddit. The majority of TiA is pro-social justice, they're just against the people who are clearly more interested in playing the part of a white knight and/or victim fighting oppression than actually making the world a better place for anyone. Hence the term "Social Justice Warrior" being used to differentiate them from the good activists.
The top comment on the article is a pretty civilized takedown of the argument in question. And if you think half the people being linked to in the subreddit as a whole are in the right, I really don't know what the fuck is wrong with you.
A)Calls it the "Death to SJWs" subreddit
and
B)Assumes that the hate mail is from there when rule number 1 of TiA is:
Yeah, it's very possible that the sender of the message is someone from TiA who broke the rule, but they're clearly not representative of the whole subreddit. The majority of TiA is pro-social justice, they're just against the people who are clearly more interested in playing the part of a white knight and/or victim fighting oppression than actually making the world a better place for anyone. Hence the term "Social Justice Warrior" being used to differentiate them from the good activists.
The top comment on the article is a pretty civilized takedown of the argument in question. And if you think half the people being linked to in the subreddit as a whole are in the right, I really don't know what the fuck is wrong with you.
Minister of the Dog
Member
It's not ridiculous if they claim they're doing it for historical accuracy reasons. You can create your character within the boundaries of what is realistic that any given person would look like in the game's setting.
It's reasonable to think that, well, maybe someone could be very tall and reach 6' or 6'3". Exceptional, but possible. See Edward IV of England, about 1'90m tall, he was viewed as a giant.
It's reasonable to think that your character could have blonde hair, brown hair, black hair; same for the eye colour (just guessing from the Czech people I've met, I don't know about what they looked like 600 years ago).
Any of these variables should not affect your character's destiny that much within WH story (I don't know for sure though, maybe someone very tall would be forced to join the army? Just speculation).
It's not reasonable to think your character would be black and everything would be exactly the same.
All within the historical accuracy argument.
Also, just because someone is white doesn't mean that they don't have any trouble imagining themselves as a young, white blacksmith from central Bohemia.
93xfan
Banned
Thanks for this post! I really agree with it.
Pardon? They certainly think that they are fighting the good fight for social justice. Hence, social justice warriors.
enanogrande
Member
Dude, Social Justice Warrior has become a loaded term. It applies perfectly for the types of people you demonstrated in your previous posts (I.E. the crazy ones) but not to everyone that believes or fights for social justice.
Er, yes?
You're calling them a sjw as a way to demean their message whether you think it's reasonable or not. Stop playing coy.
ab.aeterno
Member
So then define what a "SJW" is. Because otherwise it comes off as the most ludicrous false equivalency. "See these people? They're just like the people here/anyone who criticizes media on diversity issues so I don't listen to any of them."
If that's not what you mean with the term, I assure you, many others do. Look at Reddit, anyone who cares about diversity issues is a SJW that deserves fucking death threats.
Using the term so blanketly is just bizarre because it turns out I care about inclusiveness in media since I saw exactly 0 non-stereotypical gay characters growing up, yet I'm not going to harangue people for using gendered terms for a baby. Am I a SJW?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I don't find the term specially offensive, as is mostly sarcastical (a la 'console warriors'. But I see your point that some people take offense of it as seen in this thread.
enanogrande
Member
What, we're supposed to believe that the post I quoted wasn't applying the Social Justice Warrior brush to everyone? Or did you not understand that Tacitus_ was referring to the issue at hand and not the people you brought up?
I don't find it so much offensive as semantically void. It really just tells us that the person using the phrase disagrees with someone, and that rather than put that disagreement into an argument, they rely on cutesy name-calling and second-guessing of motive.
I don't find it particularly useful to reasonable discussion of any topic.
Certainly not. Only unreasonable ones are SJWs.
In a nutshell? People who sally the name of social justice by being dimwits and abusive assholes while thinking they are doing the right thing.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
What they believe themselves to be about is not what they are about, which is why it's important to address them properly and not use lazy, convenient terms.
(Forgive my typos in that)
I don't think it's offensive but it's definitely not conducive to any real discussion surrounding these issues if were going to sit here and call each other names because they consider a social issue you haven't yet. You're dismissing a person for having an argument instead of debating that point.
The Albatross
Member
Two points:
1. Art and culture aren't inextricably or necessarily linked with each other. You imply that to understand art you must understand culture. I don't think that art has to be defined by cultural impositions or cultural perception. I think that argument is an affront to what art, supposedly, is.
2. The second point, about keeping art to yourself, can also be applied to criticism of art. Don't expect your criticism to not be challenged or consider it an insult when your criticism is challenged. That's basically what the OP is about, that people who offered an opinion are upset that a developer, or creator of art (whatever you want to call them), is challenging their opinion. They want to criticize without getting a critical response to their criticism.
The problem with any movement is that some people in it are going to take things way too far and others that have no interest in engaging with people who disagree but rather just want to demean and belittle the people on the 'wrong' team. Such people need to be avoided for any hope of a reasonable discussion.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Well, semantic issues tend to be that when are tangential of the disscusion.
Still, I found interesting how people take issue because that. Not going to used again in a serious discussion given how can derail a argument.
Art and culture are inextricably linked. You can understand one without understanding the other, but they constantly influence each other.
I see no one in here suggesting that the criticism should be unchallenged. You've apparently misread the OP, because the people up in arms are the Reddit community who are complaining about the criticism.
None of which has anything to do with your assertion that it's not worth creating anything anymore, for reasons you didn't bother to specify. In future, if you have a point to make, make it. Posting one-liners without argumentation is a waste of people's time.
[If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.]
Ha. This reminds me of all the people getting mad about RE5 having a lot of black people.
Where were those same people in RE4? Not their race, not their problem.