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Project M Demo: Smash Bros. Brawl with Melee Gameplay! [Update: Out Now]

P

PezDispenser

Banned
BGBW said:
His argument was that the main engine never changes which is quite silly and I was just giving an example closest to home. Lets take Nintendo most successful series that continues to be so, Super Mario Bros. Are the physics still the same as they were in 1985? No, because people would get tired of that. In fact people say they are getting tired of the NSMB games and that Nintendo should spruce things up. Change can be good and stagnation isn't.

Like I said earlier, the true test it to see where Nintendo takes the next Smash Bros. They obviously thought they were doing the right thing with Brawl but for a section of the fanbase what they did was wrong. This all stems back to the comment that Nintendo won't do what the fans want, but we can't tell until we see the next game.
Click to expand...

Wow, you picked what is quite possibly the worst example to support your case. It would be hard to argue against the idea that the Super Mario games have changed very little over the past 25 years and still make shit tons of cash. Are they exactly the same in every way? No. But they are incredibly, remarkably similar to the point that if you brought a Mario fan from 1985 into the present day with a time machine, he'd feel pretty much right at home with NSMBU. The formula was a winner, they kept it largely intact, and it sold buttloads over the course of decades.

BGBW said:
And apparently you read it all wrong because I never said it was just to do with a formula but general business practises. You're the one who keeps bringing it back to games.
Click to expand...

You're right, sorry I keep sidetracking the conversation in a way that makes it relevant to the topic. You realize that videogame companies are businesses, right?

I just said companies make changes and it's understandable why because if they didn't adapt they could risk failing. And when did I say it was 100% correct, I just said it wasn't my wording.
Click to expand...

It's one thing to change your business strategy to adapt to a changing marketplace. It's another thing entirely to make sweeping changes to an already successful product formula under the pretense that you will somehow risk failure if you don't.


And I can't link to a text book.
Click to expand...

Aww... =(
 
B

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Are you even sticking to the same argument? First it was physics and now it's the formula. The formula in Brawl didn't change. Use Nintendo characters to fight each other until one knocks the other off the stage.

I brought up Mario since he does have different physics and even moves.

If you're going to change the argument half way through there's really no point in this discussion continuing.
 
R

Revven

Member
BGBW said:
His argument was that the main engine never changes which is quite silly and I was just giving an example closest to home. Lets take Nintendo most successful series that continues to be so, Super Mario Bros. Are the physics still the same as they were in 1985? No, because people would get tired of that. In fact people say they are getting tired of the NSMB games and that Nintendo should spruce things up. Change can be good and stagnation isn't.
Click to expand...

Well... it's not just physics that were changed.. (though physics are a big thing). >_>;

If you watch this, this is but one of the things that Melee had right but Brawl for whatever reason goes against it (the screen that says "Demo 2.1" is by extension how Brawl does it).

Don't look at it as just the weaker attack stopping the stronger attack from KOing. Look at it from a strings or combos angle. Also team saving angle in Doubles matches. Maybe not the best engine change example I can give that's separate from physics, but changing something like that wasn't really needed to achieve what Sakurai wanted to do.

There's other things than that he changed he didn't really need to. They're just different for the sake of being different... which isn't a good way to go about making changes to a game, IMO. If it doesn't add anything to the game, why change it? Look at Pokemon as a franchise that has kept everything the same and just adds onto the formula and improves the design. That's how Smash should be. Adding new things you can do that add to the overall gameplay. Not changing how old things work to make it seem different just to be different. Different doesn't always equate to being good. A good change is something that is additive, not subtracting or whatever word would describe what I'm trying to say LOL.
 
P

PezDispenser

Banned
Physics are part of the formula. The change in physics over 25 years of mario games was MUCH less drastic than the physics change from melee to brawl.

Hey, at least in the new Mario games you can actually perform a running jump that carries your running momentum into the jump (unlike in Brawl).

EDIT: If you want to talk about the Mario analogy, I have some more to say. You mentioned that Mario got his share of new moves across the years. He got the butt stomp somewhere in the SNES era, that's cool. And as of the original NSMB, he can now walljump in the 2d games. Awesome.

Well how about if the next 2d mario game came out, and all those extra moves were gone? Shit, not only that, but now you can't even jump! You just walk along the level, across safe bridges and occasionally falling from a higher platform to a lower one. And if you accidently run into an enemy, don't worry about it - you can still keep going. Because nobody should have to suffer the humiliation of having to lose at a video game.

And don't you even think about rushing through the level to try and get the best time! That would make everyone else who finished slower feel bad about themselves, so if you start moving too fast, you'll trip and fall!

Less abilities, less possibilities, and less depth all in the name of intentionally snubbing competitive types and protecting some hypothetical loser's glass ego - that would be the proper Brawl/Mario analogy. Because, as revealed in countless interviews with the game's creator, that was literally the logic behind most of the changes from melee to brawl.
 
T

The Lamp

Member
Revven said:
Well... it's not just physics that were changed.. (though physics are a big thing). >_>;

If you watch this, this is but one of the things that Melee had right but Brawl for whatever reason goes against it (the screen that says "Demo 2.1" is by extension how Brawl does it).

Don't look at it as just the weaker attack stopping the stronger attack from KOing. Look at it from a strings or combos angle. Also team saving angle in Doubles matches. Maybe not the best engine change example I can give that's separate from physics, but changing something like that wasn't really needed to achieve what Sakurai wanted to do.

There's other things than that he changed he didn't really need to. They're just different for the sake of being different... which isn't a good way to go about making changes to a game, IMO. If it doesn't add anything to the game, why change it? Look at Pokemon as a franchise that has kept everything the same and just adds onto the formula and improves the design. That's how Smash should be. Adding new things you can do that add to the overall gameplay. Not changing how old things work to make it seem different just to be different. Different doesn't always equate to being good. A good change is something that is additive, not subtracting or whatever word would describe what I'm trying to say LOL.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Pokemon is a perfect example. It's core formula never changes but the additions it makes are only to complement the untouched core formula. The moment they start removing things like EV and IV stats haphazardly for no beneficial reason is the moment I will stop buying the games.

If you want to start haphazardly butchering a games foundation and mechanics you might as well save that effort and make up a new game.
 
M

Mit-

Member
Will any decent changelists be published for all the characters? I'd like to be able to tell friends some specific things about characters they stopped using. I know it's supposed to be all "explore and find the changes yourself yay! :D " but they won't explore they'll just assume they're all the same.
 
R

Revven

Member
Mit- said:
Will any decent changelists be published for all the characters? I'd like to be able to tell friends some specific things about characters they stopped using. I know it's supposed to be all "explore and find the changes yourself yay! :D " but they won't explore they'll just assume they're all the same.
Click to expand...

Give us about a week or so and we'll have a list of sorts. :)
 
U

Unicorn

Member
Revven said:
Give us about a week or so and we'll have a list of sorts. :)
Click to expand...
That'll be grand.

It's going to take a while to get used to not being able to pick peels up with cartwheel dash attack with Diddy.

Squirtle's pivot antics are ridiculous. Spiking on edges with it is especially entertaining.
 
R

Revven

Member
Unicorn said:
It's going to take a while to get used to not being able to pick peels up with cartwheel dash attack with Diddy.
Click to expand...

You can pick'em up with DA if Diddy's hands are right on top of the item and you press Z. Additionally you could always just wavedash over them to pick them up.
 
B

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Barrow Roll said:
Dolphin screens should be used in all promotional materials if they aren't already. Just gorgeous.
Click to expand...

But it doesn't give an accurate representation of what it looks like on the Wii itself. ON the flipside Brawl's inbuilt screenshot tool makes the game look even worse.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
Barrow Roll said:
Dolphin screens should be used in all promotional materials if they aren't already. Just gorgeous.
Click to expand...

It's been done:

cRVD6.jpg
 
B

Barrow Roll

Member
Cuban Legend said:
Oh, I've got one and I'd like to know what you mean. What 360pad would you recommend for PC?
Click to expand...
I've gone through 3 Razer Onza's and they've all developed problems such as slow turn issues, and analog sticks registering inputs without me even touching it. I also dislike the segmented D-pad which still feels really mushy and not an improvement over Microsoft's standard D-pad. The bumpers and thumbstick buttons are uncomfortably stiff, and the tightening/loosening thumbstick feature on the Pro version is nothing more than a gimmick that will wear out your controller. I didn't like the triggers in general, especially the weak resistance. I loved the quick response face buttons and the remappable extra bumpers, but with all the issues all 3 of mine developed and all the things I don't like about the controller, I just can't recommend it to anyone.

Wired Microsoft 360 controller is a great and reliable controller for PC use.
 
Cuban Legend

Cuban Legend

Member
How to get Project:M to work correctly in Dolphin:

1. Download all required files here: http://www.mediafire.com/?q19be7ypwmno4k1 (files used in tutorial contained in the "Project M Setup Files" folder)

2. Follow the video Tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP03UBBcqvw&list=LL5qKrv8YuOYAz4ABVIgutBw

NOTE- If your game won't let you save:
*From Dolphin revision 3.0-460 onward, the game will not use, as well as refuse to make a save. This happens because the location the emulator searches for the save changes from /user/wii/title/00010000/52534245/data/ to just /user/Wii/.

To fix this, copy the contents of the "data" folder to /User/Wii/. I have provided a 100% complete save withing the /User/Wii/ folder of my Dolphin revision, copy that if you like."

*This save issue may also be fixed later as new revisions come out.*
 
D

DICKS AHOY

Banned
Already started bitching about it incessantly in the community thread, but it's really awkward going from the (besides Pit, the hell is up with the emphasis on flying and his mirror now?) greatly redesigned Brawl characters in this mod just to go back to someone like Falco and find they're back to being a pure Fox clone. Not sure how possible it is but at least in Ganondorf's case couldn't you try and introduce Black Shadow with his Melee moveset and give Ganondorf a completely new one?

Still, it's a very fun mod so far. Love the cute details like Diddy's DKC2 juggle animation, all the Land moves Wario has back (and how he doesn't move like a G&W knock-off now) or Snake having three proper taunts.
 
R

Revven

Member
It's because a lot of players going from Melee to Brawl largely preferred how Falco/Ganondorf played with their original move sets vs creating new ones that have the risk of being hated by the community. Sticking with Falco's uncloned moves with Melee stats doesn't work either because the animations then become deceptive and make people think the character isn't the same, despite having things ported.

Trust me, we tried keeping Falco's original animations and tried many different things. But things just didn't work out, players kept saying x move wasn't the same, but it was... except the animation itself. I think we were lucky to be able to keep his jab, at least... just barely lucky.

It's damned if we do or damned if we don't.

Glad to know you're enjoying it at least, though!
 
B

Brofield

Member
Anony said:
30$... there's got to be something cheaper
Click to expand...

There is significantly cheaper, but not the greatest.

http://www.mayflash.com/?Products/PCUSB/PC051.html

You can buy it off Amazon or eBay for about $15 + shipping, but it gives you two Gamecube ports for one USB slot, but I'm still hesitant for two reasons.

Product description says it supports analog and digital, but Amazon reviews say only digital and it's set off by the slightest nudge, and God help you if you want to reset it to normal. Also I can't find anything on it's compatibility with Wavebird, as that's all I have since I used to have two rabbits that tore up the cables on any and every game controller I inevitably forgot to put away before putting said lovable/fluffy furballs away.

$30 gets you reliability with any controller, but for the same price and if you're a bit of a gambler you can have 4 controllers working.

You do have to download the drivers off their website though, unless your computer still accepts 3.5" floppy disks
 
Cuban Legend

Cuban Legend

Member
Brofield said:
There is significantly cheaper, but not the greatest.

http://www.mayflash.com/?Products/PCUSB/PC051.html

You can buy it off Amazon or eBay for about $15 + shipping, but it gives you two Gamecube ports for one USB slot, but I'm still hesitant for two reasons.

Product description says it supports analog and digital, but Amazon reviews say only digital and it's set off by the slightest nudge, and God help you if you want to reset it to normal. Also I can't find anything on it's compatibility with Wavebird, as that's all I have since I used to have two rabbits that tore up the cables on any and every game controller I inevitably forgot to put away before putting said lovable/fluffy furballs away.

$30 gets you reliability with any controller, but for the same price and if you're a bit of a gambler you can have 4 controllers working.

You do have to download the drivers off their website though, unless your computer still accepts 3.5" floppy disks
Click to expand...

if someone confirms wavebird support I'll buy them out of these.

EDIT: Also, Just had a 3 hour Brawlgasm with some friends after lunch today. I need to teach them crew mode, at least I got em to love 4-stock, no items, no buffer, only tourney stages.

They are dying to see samus make her return. I main Bowser. :hide:
i7cLdXSulN4Dg.JPG
 
U

Unicorn

Member
Some local smashers had a small tournament last night.

I was thoroughly surprised at the turnout of melee players that came for Project M.

the tournament probably had close to 20 entrants and was held in the back of a local game shop.

Here's some footage uploaded (more to come, I suspect):
http://www.youtube.com/azprojectmelee

I was eliminated in my first match and also first match in loser's, but I went in cold with no practice for over 2 weeks
KuGsj.gif


Two of my friends placed 2nd and 3rd. (ENIX and Falcoty in the videos)
 
R

Revven

Member
Silly Kyle plays with a lot of the active Arizona players... including Axe, Unicorn. You should have asked about where they often play. :)

Project M has a decently sized scene in AZ, actually. It's often a mix of some Brawl players and Melee players playing it. It's one of the only hybrid P:M scenes I know of, too, where players from both games are playing it. It's pretty cool.
 
U

Unicorn

Member
Yeah, Kyle is old friends with 2 of my Smash friends who were big into Melee years ago. One is a pretty well known Ganon and falcoty is falcoty lol

They have a biweekly tourney at that place. I will start frequenting that so I can start to get better at tech stuff, since I am terrible.
KuGsj.gif


Wednesdays they have informational training type events at the same venue. Before we got there Saturday they had a Melee tournament and a few people were playing Brawl and DoubleDash
KuGsj.gif
 
TDLink

TDLink

Member
Revven said:
Ya'll just think we're joking? We're dead serious!
Click to expand...

If you guys are serious then I am even more excited for this new version because I really think this takes Smash Bros. to another level.

That being said, I still doubt y'all are serious. Especially with the pichu thing at the end. But it is disappointing that this isn't something that I think is actually happening.
 
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