Who completely cut off gas imports so far? The only ones I am aware of are Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Other big European countries put plans in place to wean off the Russian gas over time. Did I miss another country? If not that seems like an unfair comparison to make. These are tiny countries with tiny economies. Their combined population is not even 10% the size of Germany. It's a lot easier to find alternative sources to cover the small amount that they were importing. They are also beneficiaries of the EU budget not major contributors, the EU can cover those. Germany on the other hand contributes the largest share to the rest of the EU, and if their economy tanks hard then the entire EU will be affected. You also ignored the part about Ukraine supporting gas transit infrastructure and benefitting from it.
…if it isn’t worth doing, why are so many other countries doing it?
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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter AfricanKing
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FunkMiller
Banned
So, for the last time... If the will from the German (and Austrian) government existed, they could cease the influx of gas from Russia. This would require them to curtail industrial production to ensure that the gas would go to people's homes. The shutdown would hurt the German economy a great deal, no doubt. It might even hurt the EU as a whole. But the EU as a whole wants Germany (and Austria) to do more when it comes to Ukraine.
We keep going around and around in circles on this subject, so I'm not going to speak any more on it. But suffice to say... Germany and the EU would survive the hit they would take by stopping Russian gas. No sensible analysis on this predicts anything else. We're literally talking about measures that could save thousands of people's lives, and morally it would be the right thing to do). Take pain and make sacrifice to ensure this doesn't happen again. It's worth the risk.
And my only point on Ukraine and gas is that if you're a war torn country, in desperate need of military and financial support from your rich European neighbours, are you going to be the one to cut off their gas supplies, and thereby potentially anger them?
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You went around in circles and landed on the same point I was making, it's morally the right thing to do... Nothing else because we can't predict the outcome. We don't know that it will save lives. We don't know that it will affect Russia's ability to continue to wage war. We don't know how badly the Russian economy will be affected. All we know is that Russia will now have to find a new customer for 20% of it's total production capacity. They might get that customer in the matter of days or it might completely cripple their economy. I mean hell, we don't know if this will just anger them more into doing something even more stupid. It could absolutely backfire. For some reason people like you got it into their head that if one country stops buying gas then suddenly Russia is in ruin and can't fight. This war was not waged based on any logical thought process, so you aren't going to logically predict what the orcs will do.
The bolded part is just a weird take. They made what like 2 billion a year from transit fees in 2019? They have gotten more aid from their European allies than this in the past 2 weeks alone. Whose to say that if Ukraine cut off Russian gas themselves that they couldn't lobby the rest of the world to cover that 2bn difference? They didn't try even though it was funding their own genocide, so why guilt trip others to make sacrifices that they themselves apparently aren't willing to make? Ukrainian politicians are politicians. They aren't suddenly saints because they have been invaded. They do what politicians do, keep up the propaganda machine make impossible requests to land somewhere in the middle, not because they really think that actually shutting off all gas to EU and hurting their neighbors is going to help anyone. Yet somehow people get caught up in the shit.
I've also said what I was gonna say about this. Continue shitting on Germany for not living up to your perfect moral code if you want.
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FunkMiller
Banned
If I'm so wrong, why has Vlodymyr Zelensky asked for it? Why have so many Ukrainian politicians? Why have other EU politicians called for it? Why are people across the EU calling for it?
Like I say, I believe, as do many others with more knowledge than me, that Germany is continuing to play a major part in funding Putin's war atrocities in Ukraine, and that should stop, even if it does mean a demonstrable hit to the German economy.
Look, you're mad because your country royally fucked up, and now refuses to pay the consequences for it. But instead of dealing with that, you're trying to spin a narrative that it wouldn't make any difference if Germany did it anyway. Please do carry on believing that, but also be sure that the rest of us don't.
And nobody has a perfect moral code, least of all me. But I do believe that an extremely rich European nation should not be funding war atrocities, and if they can handle the damage caused by stopping it (they can) they should. If that's too much for you to agree with, then okay.
I'm not even dignifying the victim blaming comments about Ukraine, like them suddenly not being saints 'because they have been invaded' with a response.
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It's obvious you didn't bother reading my post. Why did all these politicians ask for it? Here you go I'll paste and bold what you didn't bother to read the first time. They do what politicians do, keep up the propaganda machine make impossible requests to land somewhere in the middle, not because they really think that actually shutting off all gas to EU and hurting their neighbors is going to help anyone. If Zelensky truly believed that he'd end the hypocrisy and shut off gas going through his country first. Which would be the reasonable thing to do before asking others to do the same.
Also, I am not German. I just don't like false equivalency claims like I see parroted on here by a few posters. I am not going to suddenly believe that Germany and the EU suffering is going to ease the suffering of Ukraine just because you or any politician says it is. Moral absolutism takes like these work fine as an ideal in your head, but in the real world people suffer the consequences of such drastic actions. Just because you say they "can handle it" and EU will "survive" doesn't mean this will ultimately be a net benefit to Ukraine, Germany, the EU, or the world at large.
Also, I am not waiting for your to dignify me with anything. And to correct you on what I said.. Ukrainian POLITICIANS aren't saints. If they were, Ukraine wouldn't be where it is today. I've lived in Kyiv and Kharkiv and have seen the corruption first hand.
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Tams
Member
Three n̶a̶a̶n̶ SIMs, Иеремия, THREE?!
Yeah, yeah. I know it doesn't quite work.
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NoLootBoxDev
Member
If this guy goes to prison for a bit...
Oh I apologize for not being a Zelensky dickrider. Thanks for the cute insinuation. People with low emotional intelligence always resort to personal attacks. On the ignore list you go little boy
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FunkMiller
Banned
...you know, the guy currently running a country that's under constant attack from the modern version of the Nazis, who hasn't left the country once, is out and about with his forces every day to raise moral and witness the war crimes being committed despite the danger, and spends hours talking to leaders across the world and recording videos detailing the atrocities being committed on his people.
But I guess I'm just a dickrider for thinking all of that. So sad. I've fallen for the propaganda, lads.
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Nikodemos
Member
Pradyrov getting the shakes as we speak.
akimbo009
Gold Member
Step away from this thread for just a second and it turns into a shit show! Is this Elon's fault?
Are you about to do the "they are both bad' routine? Oh I can't wait. Please, tell us how bad they all are!
Are you about to do the "they are both bad' routine? Oh I can't wait. Please, tell us how bad they all are!
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Take it easy comrade. No need to start Russian to conclusions and go nuclear on someone like that by Putin them on your ignore list.
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Get your entertainment somewhere else, sir! I'm doing nothing of the sort
akimbo009
Gold Member
Then what are you doing other than shitting up a reasonably nice thread watching Russia make a geopolitical mistake that will linger for the rest of most people's lifetimes.
Oh, is that what you are doing? Because that's not what I am doing. Or do you feel that way because I don't agree with your points? You just want a circlejerk in here of Germany is bad?
If you don't like my posts you are free to put me on ignore and move on with your life. I didn't attack any posters here or accuse them of being a German apologist or being a Russian comrade propagandist like some others have. Go tell them not to shit up the thread.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Edit: Nevermind lol
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
"the other side ain't saints" is common way how to discredit the victim. I agree about rampant corruption (hell, here it' s not much better), however it's Russia who attacked and it's probably in ukraine survival favor to not cut people on the west from natural resources before politicians therr move their asses. More or less this wouldn't hurt Russia as much given they have pipelines thrpugh Belarus. So what this stunt would achieve? Well Putin's pundits would be mad at the west and would not be so easily pursuaded to offer help and Russia would be probably hit marginally. They always were dispute's about this lines in Ukraine and flowrate is down every year since like 2012 or so. So yeah, it's not moral absolutism which makes it quite unappealing thing to do.
I can agree with what you said with a caveat. Like you said if Ukraine makes a move against the pipeline, Russia can reroute the gas. So in this case taking a "moral stance" only going to be a stunt that achieves nothing. It is probably better to not anger your supporting neighbors by shutting off the gas. If they did though, I think Europe will understand that Ukraine didn't want a part in financing the war effort against them. But this move is not helping anyone in the end.
My whole argument in Germany's case is pretty much the same. They can take a moral stance, and you can argue that they should. Fine, I will never disagree with doing the right thing. But like before it may end up a stunt that achieves nothing. We know for sure it will hurt Germany but we don't know if it will achieve the intended effect on Russia. I've yet to see anyone here provide compelling evidence from any well respected and expert source on the subject that suggests it will end the way some people claim it will. Yet every couple of pages it's the same few posters blaming Germany for not "stopping the war" and "saving thousands of lives", and as soon as I challenge their view or ask for evidence I am called a German or comrade. If they know something I don't and want to argue in good faith, then throw up a link for me to educate myself. I am never above learning and changing my stance.
But some people just can't see beyond black and white. If you aren't exactly on the same wavelength then you are the enemy. It's not enough to cut dependence and set reasonable timeframe to get completely off Russian gas, they want the governments to risk the economic security and safety of their people as well. All because Zelensky said it? Look, I went on about Zelensky not to cast doubt on his credibility or to say he is bad. Simply to say that we should not all just follow what any one man says, especially one under duress for his own people and speaking from a place of passion. No one person is infallible.
Also, about your flowrate decreases every year, that's more Russia bypassing Ukraine than anything. If I remember right Ukraine renewed their Gazprom contract in 2014 after the annexation of Crimea. Last year before the war broke out they asked Gazprom to renew for an additional 15 years and even offered to halve the transit fees. They were staunchly opposed to Nordstream 2 as Russia was slowly cutting out Ukraine and their transit fees and kept coming to negotiate. Despite the annexation and the war, Ukraine did what it had to do to preserve the economy. Yet other European countries are being villainized for trying to preserve theirs.
lmao
You must know something I dont. Please tell me what I am missing and I mean that sincerely. My understanding is that Russia is selling 200 billion cubic meters of gas yearly and Germany is buying about 40. Is a 20% percent reduction of their income enough to end this war? Any sources to suggest this and maybe elaborate if Russia will be able to offset the loss by selling to their allies?
I have no shortage of "lmao" replies and LOL reactions boosting my reaction score. I would appreciate someone to bring the receipts instead.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Every bit of damage to their economy helps. It's not meant to be a knockout blow. Its death by a thousand cuts. That is the whole point of sanctions. They are not a death dealing blow to a country. They are meant to squeeze them until the damage piles up and up until both the government and the people feel the results. Then (in theory) they back down and resume normal relations. Obviously with Russia being a brutal Dictatorship/Oligarchy this may not work because those at the top don't give a fuck about the people of Russia, but the idea remains the same.
So yeah 20% may not end the war, but Russia would feel the hurt in their corrupt as fuck wallets and that is the point.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
With Germany problem, at least from my perspective isn't the fuel, it's more lying to Ukraine and to an extent to a world (it's people too), about what their military looks like, what they can't provide and so on. Also people should not be okay with gov from western country being that deep in Russia's ass. Like we saw, these fuckers are able to do anything, lie about everything and so on. I am on Phone, but few pages back there is a video from Adam Something about Scholz steps. That is the thing which grind my gears, not that they don't want to do second Texas in winter. I was freezing today waiting on bus, spring when, etc...
an arbitrary goalpost you made
Tams
Member
You just seem to be ignoring that it's only really since Zelensky that Ukraine has noticeably started to clean itself up. And it appears to have done some remarkably quickly. Although of course the work goes back years.
For one, if they were still so corrupt, there's no way they'd be doing so well against Russia. You can see what utter corruption is like in Russia.
Ironbunny
Member
I read somewhere that if the countries buying the oil lowers enough Russia has to decide whether it is wise to shut down a pipe or keep it running. If they decide to shut it down (forced as not sold enough) its basicly shut down for good as the pressure on the pipes ruins the whole lenght of the pipes. Thats if hey cant sell it fast enough or build capasity to store it somewhere.
Yeah I understand. My grievances weren't aimed at you specifically. Germany certainly gets some deserved flack for their transparency and foreign policy. I'll be honest I don't know all that much about Germany itself or it's military. I am more knowledgeable about Ukraine because I have family/roots there and have lived there for a while. Only thing I heard was anecdotal account from a friend who served in the US military in Germany. He says Germany chose to cut back on military spending after world war 2 to not seem combative and that their military is very underdeveloped according to his buddies in the German airforce. His service ended in 2006 though so a lot could have changed since then.
I didn't make any goalposts. These were claims made in the past couple of pages which I was replying to directly. If that's not it then please feel free to enlighten me on what cutting off gas to Germany today is supposed to accomplish and how can we be sure it will work.
prinz_valium
Member
There is a weirdly strong crocus on Germany for war between Ukraine and Russia.
FunkMiller
Banned
You've ignored me for not being comradely enough, so this is more for everyone else...
If Germany were to immediately cut off their supply of gas from Russia, Austria would likely follow suit, as would Italy, and other EU countries. This would put a massive dent in Putin's ability to wage war, because, you know, a billion dollars a day suddenly drying up will do that to you, when you've got to pay for all those tanks and helicopters your dumb fucking orcs keeping driving into Ukrainian weaponry.
The argument is simple: damage to Germany's economy that they can recover from, in exchange for preventing Putin from continuing to prosecute war crimes at the level he currently is. There are no absolutes or guarantees in this, but one guarantee is that Putin is spending that money on killing Ukrainians. That is why Zelensky, and countless others, are asking for the gas supply to be cut off.
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feel free to use your imagination on how a twenty percent cut to your primary export might be impactful to keeping a country running especially when waging an expensive war and your buyers are disappearing
FunkMiller
Banned
It's simply and only because Germany continues to massively fund the war. I happen to fucking love Germany as a country for many reasons, but this is just plain wrong.
There is no debate over how fucking awful the Russians are (they are. fuck em. hope they choke) or how desperate and terrible things are for Ukraine, so it's frankly easier to have a conversation over the roles of other nations in the ongoing shitfuckery. As a supposed central and main pillar of freedom and democracy in Europe and the world, Germany is failing to live up to its obligations. It's also failing to honour their vow of 'never again'. Hence the conversation around their part in all of this. We can easily discuss the roles of the other major players like the UK and US, but they seem to be pulling their weight right now (which frankly comes as something as a shock and a miracle).
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FunkMiller
Banned
There is no way on this earth that Russia can win a protracted war against the west:
How monumentally stupid do you have to be to do this? Like, we are talking post-lobotomy levels of fucking dumb, here.
How monumentally stupid do you have to be to do this? Like, we are talking post-lobotomy levels of fucking dumb, here.
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Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
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Yeah this is what I needed. More non-answers and trust me bros. I am sorry that my imagination is just too limited. I can't imagine what kind of impact a 1-2 percent loss of income would do to Putler. Never mind the fact it will probably be much easier for the orcs to find a new buyer than it will be for Germany to find a new seller quickly. Many gas exporters are very far and/or have sanctions against their governments. But it's okay I am sure Germany will survive. It will be worth it.
lmao
No one is arguing that it won't hurt. I am not arguing that they don't deserve the most severe sanctions. And I am hopeful the EU and the whole world gets off Russian exports as soon as possible. My problem is whether or not it's fair to be angry at any country for being reluctant to immediately sacrifice their economy for this. Especially one who contributes so much to the budget of the whole European union, and is one of the top donators to the effort of Ukraine against the orcs. It's not easy to ask people to go hungry and cold. Once people's safety and security is compromised they can't help you. Some posts on here and social media make it sound like they could instantly end the war and they refuse to do it when the truth is much more nuanced than that.
I was in Kyiv a few short months prior to the election. He ran on an anti-corruption ticket and had major support for not being a career politician. The problem is that he didn't accomplish much in the way of cleaning up corruption in the first couple of years like he promised. He was also willing to make concessions to Russia in the Donbas region prior to the invasion. The veterans of the war were against this. Based on these two things he lost a lot of support/approval from his base, including most Ukrainians I know. You can make of that what you will.
With that being said he handled this war brilliantly and you couldn't ask for a better man in that position right now. And yes corruption in Ukraine never reached the heights of Russia and right now they seem to be in solidarity against the orcs. After seeing Russia's poor excuse for $120000 drones I don't think anyone will reach that level of corruption.
Oh yes LMAO indeed. Believe it or not gas is only 6-7 percent of Russia's exports. Germany is 20% of that. Feel free to use your imagination to do the arithmetic on that.
Chittagong
Gold Member
It's almost as if the people carrying out the orders wouldn't exactly want to carry out the orders
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Speaking of awfulness, in related news the orcs have been scouring Kherson Oblast for stashed grain and shipping it to Russia.
Nikodemos
Member
Holodomor 2.0.
Poland finds it’s tough to go cold turkey on Russian energy
Warsaw is hectoring EU countries to immediately stop Russian energy imports, but is leaving some wiggle room for itself.
www.politico.eu
A good article on how difficult it really is. Hopefully it can give some a fresh perpsective. Poland has been like a sister nation to Ukraine in all this.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I googled that word and boy, sure I didn’t need to learn about another atrocity committed by the human race against its brethren.
FunkMiller
Banned
Seriously Vlad. Well done, mate. You’ve now got your worst enemy planning to build a base right next door. And everybody else will welcome it with open arms. Add that to the fact your border is going to be more NATO aligned than ever, and your tactical genius really shines through 
lmao
Wildebeest
Member
Germany is considered the leader of EU in many ways. They have no hesitation taking this role when it comes to financially disciplining members or sanctioning members for not following "rules". Suddenly that "moral" leadership is gone and it is everyone for themselves.
kuncol02
Banned
They acted identically at start of pandemic. I hope that it's already obvious for people in EU that Germoney cannot be considered candidate to any leadership position in any aliance.
ShadowNate
Member
This has to be a parody, right?
Although, to be fair, I've worked in the past in... similar environments as tech support, and the level of technological illiteracy amongst officers and other high ranking personnel (who obviously got there through corrupt circuits, and definitely not competency of any kind) is mind-numbing.
kurisu_1974
Banned
Is that Sims /SIM story verified actually? Or is it NY Post nonsense?
Russia accuses Nato of ‘proxy war’ in Ukraine as US hosts crucial defence summit
Ukraine dismisses Sergei Lavrov’s war comments as diplomats gather in Germany for US-hosted talks to navigate ‘critical’ phase
www.theguardian.com
“Nato, in essence, is engaged in a war with Russia through a proxy and is arming that proxy. War means war.”
The Russian perspective on this is weird as usual. They invade a country without reason or provocation. They get upset when democratic neighbours of that country support that country and help it by supplying arms, especially after it becomes known genocide is going on. Countries supplying arms are NATO and Non-NATO, doing so independently of NATO. Russia decides to accuse NATO of being engaged in a proxy war against Russia - i.e. Russia is "playing the victim" in a conflict it started.
Between the arms sales, Sweden and Finland applying to join NATO, UK defence minster saying a forward defence base in Ukraine is a possibly after the war and the US saying they want Russia to be weakened by the conflict as well as the sanctions, how long before Russia lashes out against NATO? I do think the UK defence minster and US comments were unnecessarily inflammatory and play into the "Russia is a victim" narrative. The next steps here are either massive cyber attacks, a nuke or chemical weapon in Ukraine or a move against Finland and Sweden to prevent them joining NATO (by creating a border dispute with both countries).
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