Moses85
Member
And Sony and Valve are non profit orientated companies and sell consoles based on modern technology.
Nintendo is greedy
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Switch dataminer from Famiboards suggests the Switch 2's portable GPU clocks will be 561MHz. He also said 1.8GHz for the CPU is "hopium"
And Sony and Valve are non profit orientated companies and sell consoles based on modern technology.
Nintendo is greedy
Haint
Member
I'm first in line to shit on AMD, but you're wildly over stating GCN and RDNAs incompetence and Ampere's advantage. And exaggerating architectural effects on real world performance in general. AMD sucks at a lot of things, but they're actually pretty good at basic bitch raster performance, which is what Switch 2 will be dependent on 99% of the time. They ain't gonna be raytracing shit on a mobile SOC underclocked into the dirt on a giant ass 8nm node powered by a watch battery.Imagine considering the 1.84 TFlops of PS4 with Tahiti GPU and Jaguar CPU as even being close to Ampere architecture with ARM A78
GCN was a fucking joke. Concurrently it was a shitshow and the cache management a fiasco. Nvidia's Kepler was beating the living shit out of AMD's solution just 2 months later with 56% smaller dies and much more power efficient. The whole RDNA project is to fix their fuckup, mainly with cache that needed a huge rework. For comparison Kepler had 1/3 the latency in local memory compared to Tahiti. These were not even doing FP32 or INT32 concurrently, something that oh, is so very much important in games. GCN could do an instruction every 4 cycles while Kepler was 1 instruction every cycle. GCN was a compute monster, it handled well large work sizes with long durations, but very few game workloads fall into this category. Simple geometry was not saturing the GP (idle), it had simultaneous bit commands that created huge buffers basically kneecappings parallelism. The larger GPU on PS4 also meant that the SE:CU ratio (shader engines vs compute units) would fill slower, prefering longer running waves which is again, anti-thesis to most gaming workloads.
Now we're still in 2012 architectures of Nvidia vs AMD. That's what's inside PS4.
A shitload happened between Kepler → Maxwell → Pascal → Volta → Turing → Ampere
Ampere was a paradigm shift for Nvidia, and no, not because of double Cuda core figure, although the problem is actually Turing's nomenclature of cuda cores compared to Pascal more than Ampere.
The paradigm shift is how efficient that architecture is with high occupancy.
The FP32/INT32 cuda core added to the one dedicated to FP32, is pretty much a Pascal core. Not exactly a slouch. It is there exactly for one purpose and it is to continue the trend of keeping the GPU at near full occupancy. There's less compute than shading in gaming, almost always. The extra FP32 after INT32 is done is to finish tasks ASAP. Something that AMD tried after with dual issue that required the compiler and failed miserably with RDNA 3. So even when you consider half the cuda cores somehow, that's not how games are. It is not a loss in occupancy, you're still getting that performance, just integer performance without the MASSIVE performance penalty that architectures pre-Turing had. Occupancy of a GPU is the main driver of modern days. Idle is not wanted. Like the asynchronous barrier of ampere, wtf is that? Well on RDNA 2 when you get a call that needs data written by the computer shader, the RDNA 2's synchronous barrier prevents it from executing until ALL the threads in the computer shader have finished executing. Making the WGP idle, not enough thread level parallelism left to hide latency, bye bye efficiency. RDNA 2 performs better than Ampere at low occupancy, but chokes at high ones. Don't even start to insert ML & RT in that poor fucking pipeline. Now imagine Tahiti efficiency
- Improvements in concurrent operations (concurrent raster/RT/ML, which Turing was not)
- Asynchronous barrier to keep execution units always near full occupancy
- Ampere global memory traffic for asynchronous memory copy and reducing memory traffic
- Also served to hide data copy latency
Then Switch 2's T239 (again, going off by 2022 rumours) vs PS4's baseline
PC portables are the exact best examples of inefficiencies. RDNA 2 is super sensitive to memory latency and LPDDR5 with no infinity cache in Van Gogh kneecaps what it could have been.
- A78 ARM CPUs. Completely destroys Jaguar cores
- 12 GB
- UFS 3.1 storage, a much more power efficient storage than SSD but similar speeds, ~2100MB/s read speed.
- New I/O from either Ampere or the rumoured decompression engine added in the chip.
- RT cores & ML tensor cores
Asus ROG Ally Z1 Extreme is supposed to be so much more powerful, raw specs in every ways are better for Z1 Extreme than Van Gogh. "up to 8.6 TFlops" RDNA 3 GPU.
Is it even close to a PS5? A Series S?
Everyone knows that answer. ROG Ally are on inefficient laptop trash. Not even close to customized for handheld. This fucking chipset is 25B transistors! At low TDP for handheld it completely chokes out.
And PC portables are bloated by windows OS or Proton layer.
This is the first time we'll see Ampere outside of windows OS with NVN API which is Nvidia's inhouse API close to the metal. Buckle the fuck up, regardless of TFlops.
Forget the terraflops, look at the relatively marginal gains from PS4 to PS5. Sony's own crown jewel technical wizards Naughty Dog could only get tlou 2 remastered running at 1440p on PS5, matching the PS4 Pro's ancient GCN cores. Clearly there was no grand canyon architectural advantage here as you suggest. But you say Nvidia's TF's are different, better. Again no, AMDs GPUs have always been competitive in raster performance, they just suck ass at feature set, RT, and upscaling. Base PS5's closest equivalent RX5700 was very competitive with ampere RTX 3060 (single digit percentage gaps on a multi-game average), so again, where exactly is this grand canyon gulf in architectural gains? Like it or not, teraflops actually are a very good gauge of performance, even across architectures. Not 100% exact, but certainly nowhere close to enough of a discrepancy to turn a 2TF part into a 4TF part. Differences in equal terraflop figures are minor at best across architectures, especially only 1 generation apart.
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PixelatedBeast
Member
You said break it down but fail to explain anything except your anecdotal experience....
Where does $600 come from? Ps5 digital cost $399 and $349 when on sale.
Doesnt any wireless device need a decent internet connect? Provided you do, you'll still be able to play games anywhere at a higher performance on the Ps Portal than the Switch 2. It also has full 3rd party support without needing devs to make any optimization changes.
When was "full 3rd party support" for the Switch 2 confirmed, is that hopium? You think the Switch 2 is getting games like Black Myth Wukong ported when it still hasnt been even ported to the Series S, despite being more powerful? Please be serious.
Regardless of how you feel about Ps or Nintendo exclusives(which is a strawman arguement) that still doesnt erase the fact that you're still wrong about the Switch 2 having the best power to cost ratio than any console.
BlackTron
Member
The type of person willing to use a handheld PC to begin with is more likely to have the desire and/or will to emulate a Nintendo game on it.
But the overlap of Nintendo game fans willing to use a handheld PC is much lower. Sure a good chunk of us are nerds, but Nintendo has captured the mass market.
I main PC but Nintendo is my "it just works" gaming space. So I chose to overclock a real Switch (when TOTK came out lol) rather than emulate. Switch 2 will be a bigger bitch anyway. Take a modernized PS4 with DLSS, now emulate the games Nintendo finely optimizes for it smoothly. I don't want to be playing some epochal Zelda game, then in the second dungeon a texture is missing and a shader looks all wrong, and I have to stop to figure it out, wait for a fix, or just deal with it. I'd rather just go all-in on native hardware.
RDNA 2's performance per teraflop is 1.25X more than GCN's. And Turing had better performance per teraflop than RDNA 2 (~8.6 TF 2070 competing with the ~9.7 TF 5700 XT). So Turing should have a big performance per teraflop advantage against GCN, absent other factors. We can observe this directly when comparing the 580 with the 2070, which is about 89% faster for ~35% more teraflops.
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LordOcidax
Member
The BMW case is due the lack of experience from the devs not a hardware issue, even GTA6 is going to have a Series S version, so i think that every multi platform games is going to have a Switch 2 version eventually.You said break it down but fail to explain anything except your anecdotal experience....
Where does $600 come from? Ps5 digital cost $399 and $349 when on sale.
Doesnt any wireless device need a decent internet connect? Provided you do, you'll still be able to play games anywhere at a higher performance on the Ps Portal than the Switch 2. It also has full 3rd party support without needing devs to make any optimization changes.
When was "full 3rd party support" for the Switch 2 confirmed, is that hopium? You think the Switch 2 is getting games like Black Myth Wukong ported when it still hasnt been even ported to the Series S, despite being more powerful? Please be serious.
Regardless of how you feel about Ps or Nintendo exclusives(which is a strawman arguement) that still doesnt erase the fact that you're still wrong about the Switch 2 having the best power to cost ratio than any console.
Astray
Member
Of course they care lol.
Handheld is now their one and only market with no fall back position. If they get fucked in there like they did in the home console market, then they're cooked.
cash_longfellow
Member
Enjoy your Gameboy Advance games at $60
RoadHazard
Gold Member
More like 3 Switches.
TikiLagoonSam
Member
You said PS5 digital $399 and PS Portal $199. You need the ps5 for the portal to work. So if you add those you get $600 to equal the functionality of the Switch 2.You said break it down but fail to explain anything except your anecdotal experience....
Where does $600 come from? Ps5 digital cost $399 and $349 when on sale.
Doesnt any wireless device need a decent internet connect? Provided you do, you'll still be able to play games anywhere at a higher performance on the Ps Portal than the Switch 2. It also has full 3rd party support without needing devs to make any optimization changes.
When was "full 3rd party support" for the Switch 2 confirmed, is that hopium? You think the Switch 2 is getting games like Black Myth Wukong ported when it still hasnt been even ported to the Series S, despite being more powerful? Please be serious.
Regardless of how you feel about Ps or Nintendo exclusives(which is a strawman arguement) that still doesnt erase the fact that you're still wrong about the Switch 2 having the best power to cost ratio than any console.
Neither the switch or switch 2 require any type of internet connection to play games on it.
3rd party support is not copium. I know you don’t believe that so lets stop acting like it is to support your point. The success of the Switch has made all 3rd parties pledge unprecedented support right out of the gate. Wukong? You are really reaching here. Picking the only 3rd party game that isn’t ported because of the series s power.
I’ll repeat so you can come back to this post to admit how wrong you are about the Switch 2. BEST POWER TO COST RATIO OF ALL TIME.
Zooming in on the background trees to justify a $700 digital PS5 Pro will look like more of a joke then it already is after the S2 comes out.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I predict that Nintendo's own games will look awesome on this thing while most 3rd party stuff will look horrendous. So exactly like the original Switch.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
The Portal does cloud streaming from PS+ now. Although maybe you still need a PS5 to get that going, don't know.
Edit: Based on their guide on it, you don't.
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Aion002
Member
One can only hope... Even the Wii U also had a good start with third party games, but not before long most studios stopped supporting it.
I hope this new Nintendo console gets a MH Wilds port.
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Woopah
Member
It'll get a lot of third party support, but it won't have every third party game
Rawbutt Jellybean
Member
The handheld market is growing and it's not long until the Switch passes the PS2 in total sales. They'll be fine.
Astray
Member
I guess we'll just have to wait and see huh.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Dude, don’t kid yourself. They are coming because with low effort port they can sell you the same game for full price.
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Nintendo Marketshare is shared now with PS5, Series consoles, PC and PC handhelds.
I don't understand segmenting the market to handhelds or not given that Nintendo is releasing one device.
LordOcidax
Member
Switch 2 is not going to have the same fate as the WiiU… The WiiU is not a good example.
Sakura
Member
Xbox One was 68 GB/s and Steam Deck is 88. I don't know if it will be PS4 Pro levels docked, but the memory bandwidth shouldn't be much of a problem here, it's different architecture than the PS4. Twitter dude doesn't know what he's talking about.
Why would market share % matter? The GBA had a bigger "market share" than the DS, but still sold way less.
Astray
Member
In the case of GBA vs DS, that's more than ok by Nintendo because they're competing with themselves.
But generally you don't want to lose too much marketshare to outside competitors tho (what I mentioned is the inevitable part, because new entrants typically take from the leader's slice of the pie).
BacklashWave534
Member
Nintendo fans: This is an incredible breakthrough in mobile technology.
Everyone else: The Steamdeck has been doing this for years.
Everyone else: The Steamdeck has been doing this for years.
Sakura
Member
?
GBA sold 80 million units.
Next handheld generation Sony joins in with the PSP selling 80 million units. The DS still sold 150 million.
If Sony and MS make viable handhelds then yes, they will have a share of the market. But the handheld market will also likely grow because of it.
Rawbutt Jellybean
Member
I don't think marketshare is particularly useful and wasn't the one that brought it up. Besides, if you're throwing in Switch with PC then might as well throw mobile gaming in there as well.
llien
Member
Ain't it like just about 25-35% of PC-PS-Xbox games are available on Switch?
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I set my portal up without ever linking/turning on my PS5. (Ps premium required for cloud streaming)
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ReyBrujo
Member
They went on their own way since the Wii and on average it didn't go that bad for them.
I think we may see a few test releases to see the appetite of Switch 2 owners to buy 3rd party games. Starting with a zero install base it's going to be a long tail thing?
ReyBrujo
Member
Also the Switch has a fairly robust copyright protection, if it was defeated at all was because of unpatched Nvidia hardware.
Zathalus
Member
Radeon 7970 (GCN) 4.3TF. GeForce 1650 Super (Turing) 4.5TF and has lower memory bandwidth. The latter is around 50% faster. Architectural changes do matter.
Woopah
Member
Agreed, it doesn't make sense to.say "Nintendo has 100% market share" because Nintendo's market also includes people playing video games on the TV. They would like people playing on PS5/XBS to play on Switch 2.
A lot will jump on with PS4 ports, especially in the early years.
But they'll also be PS5 games like the next Far Cry and MGS Delta. The question is whether these games come to Switch Day 1, or a few months later.
I imagine it will vary game to game.
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Hudo
Member
This. And then the people responsible for the emulators, Ryujinx and Yuzu, were retarded enough to not only make money off of them (by paywalling the most recent builds) but also allowing the discussion and sharing of ROMs of games. Sometimes even of games that weren't even out yet. I was actually surprised how long they were allowed to exist, tbh.
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Chronos24
Member
Y'all do understand this entire thread is based off a single supposed leaker with very questionable data at that. There's no concrete detail, no idea how they'd have an SDK that's even current, what profile they supposedly got the clocks from, etc. We honestly don't really KNOW anything yet until Nintendo FINALLY reveals the damn thing.
HogIsland
Member
The part about sharing roms isn't true. And there's nothing wrong with making money developing an emulator.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yes, they were openly sharing ROMs on their Discord, and they bragged about how they were optimizing the emulator for paid customers to play unreleased games like TOTK. You can also read the final judgement with regards to Yuzu which is basically entirely about piracy.
Yuzu devs pay Nintendo $2.4 million, shut down the massive Switch emulator, declare "we cannot continue to allow" such "extensive piracy," and pull all code offline
Update: In less than a week, the Yuzu devs agree to a settlement and shut it all down
You can feel however you want about what emus and piracy but the facts are the facts and they are easily available.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
The speculation of rumor is more fun than the reality of facts. And it's even more fun to watch those pontifications from people who swear that Nintendo can't be this, that, or the fourth biased on the obvious bias they carry. Either way, reading back through this thread should prove interesting once the truth is out there.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Xbox one had esram to help out the bandwidth issue
Hudo
Member
It is true, tho. I have witnessed this myself on the Discords.
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
I’m not exaggerating anything, these architectures have been micro-benched to hell and back.
GCN is the worst architecture AMD put out and is the historic moment in time where they gave Nvidia the lead since 2012. It fucked them up so bad that.
You think because its doing raster that the ampere second cuda core is idle? ~70% of a raster pipeline is compute. Now MORE than ever.
If you want to cut Ampere TFlops, then buckle up, you have to kneecap previous platforms TFlops numbers as they could not even do them concurrently with compute.
It ain’t gonna be 8nm Samsung. I’ve down the math on it many times now. Doesn’t fit. The 12 SMs and 8 A78C cores take ~7.5B transistors. Just those, nothing else. At 200mm^2 with the same Samsung node as Tegra Orin you would have ~8.5-9B transistors. It doesn’t fit. You’re far away from having an APU with that kind of transistor budget. Go open up the Van Gogh die shot for the fun of it. That was fully custom for Valve and look how much area is not dedicated to cores. Nvidia ain’t doing a 100% custom solution to Nintendo, that chip will be used elsewhere like usual, shield 2 or something. So more bloated for more general tasks. 560MHz is not even a profile that makes sense on 8nm.
It’ll be Samsung’s 5LPP or variant of it as Nvidia typically has their own twist on nodes. It’s Samsung’s 7nm line with adjustments, it’s cheap, it’s the remaining node in that category as they removed 7L and 6L, and it’ll allow for higher density but again Nvidia does not go ever full density. 60MTr/mm^2 would fit 12B transistor comfortably into 200mm^2. Now you have an APU.
Glad that’s settled
That’s this gen’s diminishing returns. That’s the effort they were willing to make to get a quick $
Certainly nobody in their right mind thinks TLoU part 2 is peak PS5 ? Are you suggesting that?
You’re comparing AMD’s Tahiti desktop architecture solution to RDNA 2 kneecapped without infinity cache. It’s a neutered dog. Works well enough but all advancements AMD made on cache is pretty much culled back. They still didn’t have their paradigm shift like everything ampere got. You still have problems with occupancy, even more exacerbated by no infinity cache. Ampere SMs in tegra remain authentic to the desktop architecture even if there’s less.
Better occupancy and concurrency. Which is mainly what matters in modern architectures.
Concurrent, asynchronous, cache systems. Way more important than raw flops.
Compared to PS4 Tahiti, in tech advancements it’s like comparing a 69 600HP Camaro to a McLaren F1’s 600HP. Which one wins the Nurburgring?
So as per your maths, 3584/2 = 1792 cuda cores are keeping up with 2304 shading units clock for clock for old games? 77% of the 5700XT TFlops right?
Now go see how Alan Wake 2 performs between those two, just a taste of how modern architectures differ compute wise.
In Alan wake 2's case a 5700XT does not even keep up with a 2060 Super, 75% of the performance of a 2060 Super in fact. Mesh shaders.
2060 Super with 85% less shader cores, lower clocks, 7.18TFlops vs 9.754TFlops of 5700XT, performs 28% better
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I bet you say "Not fair!" Yea, that's a generational difference in architectures and games are just starting to really use modern architectures and stop using crossgen tech. This includes Cyberpunk 2077 which would have benefitted a lot from this but they were supporting (stupidly) PS4 GCN, so that's the end result. Alan Wake 2 is the first, of many. PS5 & Xbox series X have those. Inevitably the games that will push the best graphics in the gen will use it.
Serialized fixed function pipeline are limited by bandwidth and if you try to push more triangles than you can through that pipeline it doesn't scale. By going with full programmable it scales to all the cores you've got on the GPU. The pipeline is "compute-like" and Turing/Ampere loves that. You remove the bottleneck in the middle of your vertex shader and your pixel shader of traditional architectures, telling you no, this is the fixed rate of triangles I can output. The new method also optimizes vertex reuse, reduces the attribute fetches. Because they are reduced to tiny meshlets, they stay in cache, rather than fetching stuff from really far into main GPU memory or even worse the system memory. The geometry can work entirely in pipe. It's made much like Nanite, for big geometry with automatic culling and LODs. Procedural instancing for hair / vegetation / water which are geometry intensive.
But why would Switch devs ignore a feature that is embedded in the NVN API? There's big performance boosts to use them. Why would they not use modern feature sets supported for their SoC and kneecap themselves to match PS4 GCN limits? Who would do that?
Wow, what year is this.jpg
Then Xbox series X is 20% faster than PS5, confirmed! /s
Games have moved away from raster more and more. Not even including RT. Modern engines and especially UE5 have a ton of compute.
Where are the PS4 games with Nanite? Lumen? Not even Fortnite on the more powerful PS4 Pro supports it. I don't understand, because even the weaker TFlops Steam deck has those, even hardware Lumen which AMD is not even that good at. Devs just didn't want the money and port to PS4? All of them? Black Myth Wukong works on Steam deck, where's PS4 Pro port? Steam Deck is ~1/4 the TFlops of PS4 pro, should be running high res comparatively. Imagine, Steam deck with a fucking windows OS to proton layer and the typical PC handheld inefficiencies still has it. No reason to not port on huge userbase PS4 platform...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Then if we add RT, I've seen so many arguments that it won't have RT on switch because "lol" too weak. A steam deck still runs Indiana Jones with RT, while a 5700 is what comparatively? A black screen. Ampere RT is much better. Steam deck runs Metro Exodus EE RT, control reflections, etc. Why would anyone assume Switch can't. Mind blowing. Peoples who say that are tech illiterate.
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James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
That wall of text lol, ampere is not turning switch into a ps4 for handheld let alone a ps4 pro lol
Expecting RT in switch 2 games? Seriously man the hopium is outrageously high for some of yall
The memory bandwidth on this device is incredible low
Expecting RT in switch 2 games? Seriously man the hopium is outrageously high for some of yall
The memory bandwidth on this device is incredible low
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Interfectum
Member
There is no way this system carries Nintendo for the next 7-8 years if true. They clearly have something new coming in the next couple years that is probably not Switch related.
ReyBrujo
Member
It's all about games. Switch was underpowered and most games still look worse than Xbox360 yet it carried Nintendo to the Moon.
HogIsland
Member
I thought we'd have Windwaker on Switch by now for the same reason.
Shaki12345
Member
Nah, they are going to release that when it makes sense. Nintendo had good games every part of the year. They didn't need WW.
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Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Your post will age about as good as your Concord predictions.
You can't even refute anything without just trolling here with "lol", you're tech illiterate James, sorry to tell it like it is.
A Steam Deck does all of the above you mention, on bloated OS with translation layer with RDNA 2 which performs worse in RT. Imagine trying to take a PS4 equivalent PC back in 2012 and try to run the games from a closed system with close to metal API compared to windows OS with a transfer layer. Cute.
It'll run things that have never been on PS4 Pro. The jaguar CPU, the generational difference in GPUs and the IO management kneecap it, no matter the teraflops. Switch 2 will run UE5, plenty of UE5 games.
Esppiral
Member
No, they were not sharing rooms in their Discord and talking about unreleased games running on the emulator was baneable.Yes, they were openly sharing ROMs on their Discord, and they bragged about how they were optimizing the emulator for paid customers to play unreleased games like TOTK. You can also read the final judgement with regards to Yuzu which is basically entirely about piracy.
Yuzu devs pay Nintendo $2.4 million, shut down the massive Switch emulator, declare "we cannot continue to allow" such "extensive piracy," and pull all code offline
Update: In less than a week, the Yuzu devs agree to a settlement and shut it all downwww.gamesradar.com
You can feel however you want about what emus and piracy but the facts are the facts and they are easily available.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
You’re the tech illiterate, as clearly displayed by takes like this.
PS4 pro isn’t getting ports because it’s a last gen system not worth porting to when there is a ps5 on the market, not because it’s impossible to down port it
Just because RT may be possible on switch 2 doesn’t mean it will be widely adopted in anything more than the most basic games.
This is a low power, bandwidth starved device. It’s going to struggle mightily with modern titles even if massive down ports are possible
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Insane Metal
Member
I don't buy anything so I'll criticize anything anywayBut of course, the only comparison that actually matters is how it stacks up against the original Switch. If it’s a generational leap from that standpoint, that’s all that really matters. Switch is a weak 2015 mobile chipset that sold 140+ million units and 2 billion games, *without ever having a single price drop*. Roll your eyes all ya want
People buy compelling experiences, not specs.
diffusionx
Gold Member
They acknowledged all of this as part of the settlement, and they used TOTK as a way to get more subscribers before the game was released.
I dont know why people like you are just trotting out these lies like this, long after the facts were settled.
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