C'mon, this is no way to have a decent conversation. This is hostility. Even if you don't agree, he wasn't name calling or talking down to anyone.
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IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
- Thread starter benny_a
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C'mon, this is no way to have a decent conversation. This is hostility. Even if you don't agree, he wasn't name calling or talking down to anyone.
Haven't you ever been in a situation that is horribly awkward and you just try to maintain composure? Not everyone can just say, "stop it"; some people are more passive than that, but that doesn't mean the exchange wasn't unwanted.
I doubt that anyone cares if it fits the book definition of sexual harassment or not; it's a shitty thing to do. Maybe public shaming is a bit far, but it's always good to learn from these experiences and nothing quite changes your ways faster than getting publicly shamed.
Of course this is coming from someone who's introduction to NeoGAF was publicly shaming someone, so maybe I'm a bit bias in that regard.
It's obvious why it made her so uncomfortable; the clitoris has at least 8,000 nerves which is 4x as much as the head of a penis. I wouldn't be able to deal with such grossly inaccurate statements either.
I think what Jaffe is bringing up is actually worth discussing, but the time to bring up how to behave and what constitutes unwanted advancements is not the hour this creep is found out. People will just paint you as blaming the victim and defending the inappropriate discussion, no matter how much you try to say this isn't the case.
In my opinion her not acknowledging the sexual advancements should be enough to make it clear she doesn't want to go down that route. The crux is 11pm.
And I think she shouldn't have continued the conversation at 11pm and just said she fell asleep if he messaged her again. I feel these 37 minutes between the messages gives her a good non-confrontational "out."
The chat log could still be published and we could still have a conversation of what constitutes unethical advancements and how this is over the line for someone that judges whether or not your game gets coverage on a pretty big indie site.
In my opinion her not acknowledging the sexual advancements should be enough to make it clear she doesn't want to go down that route. The crux is 11pm.
And I think she shouldn't have continued the conversation at 11pm and just said she fell asleep if he messaged her again. I feel these 37 minutes between the messages gives her a good non-confrontational "out."
The chat log could still be published and we could still have a conversation of what constitutes unethical advancements and how this is over the line for someone that judges whether or not your game gets coverage on a pretty big indie site.
Devolution
Member
So to cover your ass we're now into legal territory for some odd reason when most of what is said here hasn't been about how she should sue, just about the unwarranted attention in question.
Here's a clue for you Jaffe: someone not humoring your advances? Shut the fuck up.
runnin_blue
Banned
I understand where you are coming from and I agree with some of your sentiments, but I think you need to learn how to form and express your arguments properly. Twitter was not a good idea for starters.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Oh I don't really care- this is fun for me and I can't sleep.
Best case I'll get some genuinely good debate from folks out of this from folks smarter than me where I can learn some things. Always down for that; I'm ok not being right and my mind is open: If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.
Second best case I'll piss off some people who I would probably despise if I met them in real life.
So it's a win-win for me.
David
Remember he was drunk for 8+ hours so I'm pretty sure that excuses everything.
runnin_blue
Banned
Lol. I appreciate your straightforwardness coz I'm the same. Stick to your guns mate.
EDIT: genuinely not mocking btw
JesseEwiak
Member
Legally, it may not be sexual harassment, but morally, I'm just a dumb 30 year old guy with less than great ability to talk to women and even I can tell about three messages in, she's doing the Internet version of "gritting your teeth and baring an idiotic conversation at a work party because this guy can possibly help you in the future" dance.
Every time he goes over the top, she answers the question professionally and tries to move on. It's not that complicated. No, she never said stop it. For a variety of reasons already explained in this thread.
But the point is, she shouldn't have had to say 'stop it' in the first place.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Agree but then why joke back with him about some of his vulgarities ('shadow boxing? Not for texting...ZING!')
She doesn't have to say stop it. If she had said nothing but keeping it pro, I would not have said a THING. But it's the shades of grey about how she responds that makes me recoil at the 'kill the beast' knee jerkers.
FrontierWhiskey
Member
I think the reason this is important is that people can be difficult to read. Not everyone has the same social cues as others. I know now that I'm 36 that had I been a bit more 'agressive' - maybe confident is a better word - that girls would have responded better to me when I was younger. But it's hard to be a nice guy and also push the boundaries of a grey area.
Also, no one is saying this dude wasn't super inappropriate.
Devolution
Member
Hey after someone tries to keep it professional come back hours later about HOW WELL YOU CAN EAT HER BOX.
TOTES COOL HUH JAFFE.
Sir British
Banned
Sexual Harassment is not equal. It's on a 'your mileage may vary', but for certain situations such as in this case, I think calling them out on it in the conversation is surely a plus. If he responded rudely or try to 'harass her', then it's all in her favour and more evidence to publish.
What is ridiculous is the fact that we're treating her as she is a rape victim. She's a person who got the raw end of the stick and I do feel for her, but it saddens me that she didn't call him out on it or told him it was out of order.
The best way to diffuse a situation is to appeal to them first and say "No, this isn't right. That is out of order. Please stop it and do not contact me". If he didn't comply, then it was in her favour.
Rocket Scientist
Member
So I just saw that the original conversation had the guy blurred and his identity was not revealed. If she or her friend did not reveal the identity then I retract my statements concerning her actions. Who revealed the identity?
Hey David, I appreciate you taking the time to post here. I have a question. Sony's sexual harassment classes covered it, I'm sure.
If a woman doesn't explicitly say no to someone raping her it isn't rape, right? I mean, if the perpetrator DOESN'T KNOW said woman doesn't like the individual forcing themselves on her, how can they be held accountable? Especially in the eyes of the law.
Obviously if she didn't tell them 'no' or to 'stop it', it's totally cool. As long as they're adults and all.
If a woman doesn't explicitly say no to someone raping her it isn't rape, right? I mean, if the perpetrator DOESN'T KNOW said woman doesn't like the individual forcing themselves on her, how can they be held accountable? Especially in the eyes of the law.
Obviously if she didn't tell them 'no' or to 'stop it', it's totally cool. As long as they're adults and all.
Again, im sure her first reaction was also telling him to fuck off, but what if she does, reports on him and find that his boss or human resources guy right away tells her that this doesn't fit under his/her definition of harassment? We have seen a lot of people here argue that it isnt, some tried to argue that the first messages are witty banter and that its only after 8 hours of messages that the woman was justified to report him. So what happens then? The same thing it happens in the military, it gets thrown under the table, the guy is seen as a poor victim of the PC police and the girl's career is stuck.
That is only a possibility, but its a scary one and it would make me hesitate if I were a woman. Implying that she needs to be a perfect victim otherwise her complains are not 100% valid is scummy.
Your comments were met with hostility because you criticized her for bringing this to the public while saying "Women have a powerful voice! Speak up!", it was funny to me but it wouldnt surprise my if some women might find it offensive.
captainnapalm
Member
Let's say she was trying to be cool about it and not cause a scene, but as time went on and she thought about it more, and he added that final lengthy cunnilingus reply, she decided she had enough. That's perfectly ok on her part.
runnin_blue
Banned
That's not what David is saying. Stop putting words into his mouth. Stop being a douche.
geeze devo ....
I agree with what you are saying but god damn lol, jaffe had no idea what he was in for.
Devolution
Member
She didn't tell him to stop. She was sending mixed signals. She's not a victim here.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Wait, what are you saying? I didn't catch that cause I was distracted by the pussy on your face.
Captain Fish
Member
Re: Jaffe Video
I don't see how awkwardly typing HAHAHAHA and only responding to the business related parts of a question is 'having a volley.'
She was asked some questions and along with it there was some unwanted shit that was clearly unwanted because she didn't respond to it at all. To call her unprofessional when she still gave an extremely thoughtful response to his business inquiries is bullshit.
It would be really awesome if every woman felt comfortable to respond in a super clear way, without worrying it could hurt their chances in the industry. Hell, here this asshole is inquiring about a place where she wants to work, she doesn't know how strong a connection he has with them or if he'd put in a bad word if she was more confrontational. In my opinion that is what makes this story even sadder, but for Jaffe it just means she didn't do enough.
People don't expect to have to deal with bullshit like this. You get caught off guard in a situation where you ready for one interaction, and it can be hard to transition from 'pleasant conversation' to 'being harassed.' It can be shocking, especially when tied with actual reasonable requests and questions. I bet she was never expecting it to continue past the 1st comment and when it did she just decided to respond in a business-like manner.
I don't see how awkwardly typing HAHAHAHA and only responding to the business related parts of a question is 'having a volley.'
She was asked some questions and along with it there was some unwanted shit that was clearly unwanted because she didn't respond to it at all. To call her unprofessional when she still gave an extremely thoughtful response to his business inquiries is bullshit.
It would be really awesome if every woman felt comfortable to respond in a super clear way, without worrying it could hurt their chances in the industry. Hell, here this asshole is inquiring about a place where she wants to work, she doesn't know how strong a connection he has with them or if he'd put in a bad word if she was more confrontational. In my opinion that is what makes this story even sadder, but for Jaffe it just means she didn't do enough.
People don't expect to have to deal with bullshit like this. You get caught off guard in a situation where you ready for one interaction, and it can be hard to transition from 'pleasant conversation' to 'being harassed.' It can be shocking, especially when tied with actual reasonable requests and questions. I bet she was never expecting it to continue past the 1st comment and when it did she just decided to respond in a business-like manner.
runnin_blue
Banned
That's absolutely not what I said. What's going on here? What's wrong with people?
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I don't mean to be a dick, but that's just a terrible comparison and I think you know it.
FrontierWhiskey
Member
This is just awful. And garbage thinking. Equating stupid or offensive texts to actual assault is...fuck I don't have the words. Get a grip.
all I see in that chat log is her 'keeping it pro'. you are honing in on some off-white phrase in her reaction while seemingly not at all imagining the more likely scenario of someone on the other end of a computer in an awkward work-related situation and thinking "what the fuck? how do I even respond to this?"
but this is exactly what you were bringing up in your video, like almost word for word, and now you're backpedaling.
I don't mean to be a dick, but that's just a terrible comparison and I think you know it.
but this is exactly what you were bringing up in your video, like almost word for word, and now you're backpedaling.
Prophet Steve
Member
Note that that comment was after five inappropriate comments. I think at that point of ignoring...advances, it should be quite clear the party has no interest and you should stop.
Devolution
Member
That's what he said, in his video.
If he does think what the guy did was unacceptable it begs the question why she would need to say anything? WHICH IS IT.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
JesseEwiak
Member
Hell, look at the some of the absolute bullshit in this thread (and I'm not putting Jaffe's statements under that blanket - I mean, the stuff earlier on that was literally "I don't see what's wrong here) in a situation where it's blatant.
He Said/She Said still happens when we have a literal f'ing record of the conversation.
Please don't listen to what Jaffe says as legally correct. Is the guy in question NOT a journalist? Was he NOT asking questions related to work? Sexual harassment under the workforce is defined as some one making you FEEL uncomfortable through a sexual suggestion or act. You don't have to tell some one "stop" for it be not considered harassment. All it does is have to make that person feel uncomfortable, which later they can report it.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
That's a fair read of the situation. I don't think it's any more logical than my read however.
Sir British
Banned
Oh I know full well of the situation and I'm not ignorant of the barriers that women face in the workplace. I've seen some examples of it in my lifetime. But it's a massive barrier that women should try to overcome and I would encourage them all the way to speak out against it, in the workplace, and try to secure as much evidence as they can if HR don't want to do anything about it.
I'm not blaming the woman for not speaking out. I never would. But I know that silence or sidestepping the situation contributes to the situation and I say this from experience.
Rocket Scientist
Member
But she didn't tell him to fuck off so the comparison is off. If she or her friend revealed the identity and publicly shamed him, it has nothing to do with legitimate reporting of sexual harassment or telling someone to ''fuck off''. Pretty sure that plenty of people would have applauded her for telling him to fuck off or actually reporting a case like this to relevant authorities instead of this public shaming.
Unhandled Exception
Member
This is likely the most realistic breakdown of what was going on. I think she handled it perfectly if her goal was to keep a working relationship with the guy and not make things even more awkward than he made them. That's the problem though, unless she was waving the red flag those incapable of reading social situations easily will never see it for what it is.
The business conversation, despite being already inappropriate throughout, ends at 10:23pm.
She choose to respond to his lewd comments 37 minutes later and her motivation for that might have been the fear of repercussions. But it's still 37 minutes after the business talk is over from her side.
She choose to respond to his lewd comments 37 minutes later and her motivation for that might have been the fear of repercussions. But it's still 37 minutes after the business talk is over from her side.
runnin_blue
Banned
He didn't say she's not a victim, you're paraphrasing and taking it out of context .
To be clear, I am not agreeing entirely on how Jaffe expressed himself, but some people on here (including you) are on a witch hunt and it is not constructive.
EDIT: nice stealth edit btw
JesseEwiak
Member
Have you ever laughed at a fan's dumb jokes or taken their personal information because "they have a really great idea", then tossed all of it the moment they were out the door? That's what this woman was doing. She was trying to get through the conversation with as little damage as possible. Probably because she's had to deal with idiotic conversation like this since she grew breasts.
Well that escalated quickly.
All I see is Laralyn repeatedly deflecting his comments, this doesn't help your case as much as you think it does...
That is just flirting. Haven't you learned anything from this thread?
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I don't think so. She's looking for a fight with me, so she's got it. Not that it will be very dramatic or worth her time or mine but hell, a person can only take so much poking.
Plus, come on: it's a picture of a woman...with a pussy on her face.
The pun Gods would strike me down if I didn't say SOMETHING.
David
voodoopanda
Member
Requiring someone to clearly say "no" in the heat of the moment in order for something to be considered harassment is not a good policy, it completely ignores power dynamics and human nature. Holding someone up to that standard just makes it more difficult for people to speak out and to shed light on real acts of harassment.
If someone feels like they were harassed but did not, in the moment of harassment, clearly enough state that the person should stop, or do not have evidence of telling the person to stop, reading responses like Jaffe's would force them to re-think coming forward. That they will end up holding some of the blame for what happened and therefore stay quiet and allow the harasser to continue, and to let other people think that kind of believe is okay. Having these kinds of standards put on the victim is ultimately silencing to major problems in workplaces and elsewhere.
This isn't a positive way of dealing with a serious issue. You can't hold a victim up to a "perfect" standard of behavior.
If someone feels like they were harassed but did not, in the moment of harassment, clearly enough state that the person should stop, or do not have evidence of telling the person to stop, reading responses like Jaffe's would force them to re-think coming forward. That they will end up holding some of the blame for what happened and therefore stay quiet and allow the harasser to continue, and to let other people think that kind of believe is okay. Having these kinds of standards put on the victim is ultimately silencing to major problems in workplaces and elsewhere.
This isn't a positive way of dealing with a serious issue. You can't hold a victim up to a "perfect" standard of behavior.
I don't mean to be a dick, but that's just a terrible comparison and I think you know it.
I want to see how far your views go.
You have to understand making the same argument that is made daily in regards to rape. She clearly didn't want any of the bullshit he was giving her, but I guess because she didn't say 'no' or 'stop it' in a way that satisfies your requirements, it's no big deal.
Someone shouldn't be operating under the guise of their job only in reality to be like YO BABY, LET ME GLAZE THAT FACE OF YOURS WITH MY CUM.
He's a gross piece of shit. It's pretty open and shut and I think you should know better than to make excuses for him.
It's also garbage thinking to suggest she needed to be clearer when she was pretty fucking clear already.
But maybe she was just leading him on!
Devolution
Member
That's me actually. That's my pussy. And here's where I tell you to stop.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
And as much as I think I may really dislike you (I honestly think if we met in real life we'd just HATE each other, you know?) I DO respect and appreciate that you want me to stop and it's noted and you got it!
captainnapalm
Member
And what is all this talk about vaginas and cunnilingus? I'm surprised he didn't start mentioning her vulva and cervix. This guy has all the skills of an alien who has come down to earth and read one medical text on female anatomy.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
On what planet am I making excuses for him?!?! This is the problem I have with some of you folks- you hear one thing and totally warp it into something else. Not once have I said what this guy did was anywhere in the REALM of ANYTHING other than super douche baggery. Not ONCE. And yet you are ok typing a sentence saying that I am making 'excuses for him'...just stunning.
Unhandled Exception
Member
"i want to insert my penis into your vagina so that we may both reach climax and feel pleasant"
"..."
"im good at it i swears"
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