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[Fess]

Y'know.... For 600, I think 16gb is still a little shy. 20 would have been perfect and landed a good one on the 5080.

Yeah they should’ve gone with more vram on the XT. Based on my experience with 4080S 16GB is not enough for 4K ray tracing on Indiana Jones for example, had to lower settings.

 

[Kaiserstark]

I think PSSR and FSR4 are separate entities. FSR4 is much newer and designed around RDNA4 hardware, PSSR started life in 2020/2021 when Cerny designed Pro hardware.

My prediction is that Sony will drop PSSR and use FSR4/5 on PS6 (FSR4 looks to have better quality than PSSR already).

I don't think they are going to abandon the PSSR that they built from the ground up for FSR4 especially when Cerny said a few weeks ago that the partnership with AMD might accelerate their network and bring improvements to PSSR.

Cerny said that "Spectral" is their tech branding for all the future ML stuff they will develop. He also talked about adding frame generation, frame extrapolation or denoising to the PSSR so it's pretty clear that PlayStation isn't planning to just use FSR in the future and abandon everything.

 

[Gaiff]

Did they say when the reviews are going live?

 

[Crayon]

Did they say when the reviews are going live?

I just watched the ancient gameplays video and I think he said the 5th.

 

[Codeblew]

It's too bad the 32GB rumors didn't pan out. Honestly though, would that be even worth it for them?

I would buy that in a heartbeat if it isn't too crazy expensive. Maybe there will be a 9080 XT version someday?

 

[Rentahamster]

I would buy that in a heartbeat if it isn't too crazy expensive. Maybe there will be a 9080 XT version someday?

Maybe. Perhaps they think it might negatively affect their PRO lineup of cards? But who's buying those anyway lol.

 

[winjer]

The correct comparison is the 7700xt (given the 7), so not sure why you're comparing to a past higher-end card than the actual product coding implies.

Watch as they normalize this pricing for their following gen "midrange" cards and then add new "halo products" on top for an eye-watering Nvidia-like premium.

AMD has successfully hoodwinked the pc market this gen.

AMD has already stated they changed their naming scheme for RDNA4, to better match the naming scheme of nvidia.
It has no relation to the "700" that AMD used in prior generations.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't think they are going to abandon the PSSR that they built from the ground up for FSR4 especially when Cerny said a few weeks ago that the partnership with AMD might accelerate their network and bring improvements to PSSR.

Cerny said that "Spectral" is their tech branding for all the future ML stuff they will develop. He also talked about adding frame generation, frame extrapolation or denoising to the PSSR so it's pretty clear that PlayStation isn't planning to just use FSR in the future and abandon everything.

If they can run FSR4 and it makes sense they will. They still deal with limitations of a cheaper box with more limited power consumption so the model they use and the tech they build on top of it all must make sense for it. I think PSSR is here to stay.

They are co-developing their AI / ML based models and tools with AMD and they are co-developing the semi-custom HW that will run it. PSSR has just released its first iteration for 300 TOPS AI accelerators while FSR4 needs far more than that, I agree we need to give them both time .

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Was looking around for some EU prices and found this one on NL and BE amazon, nothing yet on DE, UK or FR though

Lol, lmao even, sold by amazon itself

At least we don't tip.

 

[FireFly]

The correct comparison is the 7700xt (given the 7), so not sure why you're comparing to a past higher-end card than the actual product coding implies.

Watch as they normalize this pricing for their following gen "midrange" cards and then add new "halo products" on top for an eye-watering Nvidia-like premium.

AMD has successfully hoodwinked the pc market this gen.

The 9070 XT is expected to be ~64% faster than the 7700 XT, for 33% more money at MSRP. So AMD is indeed guilty of giving you more performance per dollar.

(The 9060 XT is probably not going to be too far off the 7700 XT, for substantially less money, especially since it will be going against Intel's B580).

Edit: I was using TPU's 1080p figures, so actually it should be ~73% faster at 1440p.

 

[Buggy Loop]

If they can run FSR4 and it made sense they will. They still deal with limitations of a cheaper box with more limited power consumption so the model they use and the tech they build on top of it all must make sense for it. I think PSSR is here to stay.

They are co-developing their AI / ML based models and tools with AMD and they are co-developing the semi-custom HW that will run it. PSSR has just released its first iteration for 300 TOPS AI accelerators while FSR4 needs far more than that, I agree we need to give them both time .

These new upscalers are getting stupid with AI TOPs

Nvidia made transformer model run on bottom of the barrel Turing which is what, a 2060 in the range of ~40 TOPs? If even that, considering the top line Turing was ~85 TOPs. Peoples tested it even on downclocked 3050 mobile to simulate switch 2 and it works.

Seems insane how they’re trying to brute force their way to catch up with DLSS 2’s CNN model but that thing also runs on everything. Can’t help but think they’re on the wrong track if anything requires >100 TOPs. They’re not understanding the recipe nvidia did clearly.

 

[N0S]

Was looking around for some EU prices and found this one on NL and BE amazon, nothing yet on DE, UK or FR though

Lol, lmao even, sold by amazon itself

 

[Panajev2001a]

These new upscalers are getting stupid with AI TOPs

Nvidia made transformer model run on bottom of the barrel Turing which is what, a 2060 in the range of ~40 TOPs? If even that, considering the top line Turing was ~85 TOPs. Peoples tested it even on downclocked 3050 mobile to simulate switch 2 and it works.

Seems insane how they’re trying to brute force their way to catch up with DLSS 2’s CNN model but that thing also runs on everything. Can’t help but think they’re on the wrong track if anything requires >100 TOPs. They’re not understanding the recipe nvidia did clearly.

I am not sure what data you are counting here, FP ops maybe?

INT8 wise 2060 was well well above 100 TOPS, with Turing’s higher end (2080 Ti) was well above 215 TOPS.

https://images.nvidia.com/aem-dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-visualization/technologies/turing-architecture/NVIDIA-Turing-Architecture-Whitepaper.pdf

PS5 Pro GPU, AI processing wise, is rated as 300 TOPS (peak) and that is also INT8, but even Cerny was saying they do not quite hit that peak figure yet and why. So not sure it is correct to say PSSR currently requires 300 TOPS of power to be fair.

 

[metareferential]

600 for 5070tish performance is not bad I guess.

We'll see how availability fares.

 

[Ivan]

I'm mean sure, PSSR uses some aspects of rdna 4 but ps5/ Xbox sx units are about to explode with gta6 around the corner. To hold these consoles to rdna 3.1 is a terrible idea.

Gaffers are always much better engineers than some amateurs like Mark Cerny etc... Just facts.

 

[Bojji]

Gaffers are always much better engineers than some amateurs like Mark Cerny etc... Just facts.

Good luck porting FSR4 to hardware that will not be able to run it at any decent speed.

 

[Crayon]

If there's a 9050 (should be with the new naming scheme) FSR 4 will work on that, too. That'll be a lot less tops.

 

[Bojji]

MLiD is often wrong (but sometimes he isn't) but for sure it's super rare for him to have any negative AMD news. He is talking about higher AiB prices and potential price surge in April:

 

[SolidQ]

not 10 cards RTX 5090

 

[Bojji]

General recommendation for any GPU launch right now is: buy as soon as you can.

Market is so starved I doubt initial batch of 9070 series will available for long.

 

[StereoVsn]

Tariffs are going up another 10% in US and you just know Corpos aren’t going to miss the chance to hike the price up in rest of the world.

So yeah, $600 MSRP right now will be like $800+ AIB board in April / May. Add 20% in € on top, Eurobros.

 

[Gaiff]

not 10 cards RTX 5090

Yeah, no shit. The non-XT variant should be $100-150 cheaper, not $50.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I am not sure what data you are counting here, FP ops maybe?

INT8 wise 2060 was well well above 100 TOPS, with Turing’s higher end (2080 Ti) was well above 215 TOPS.

https://images.nvidia.com/aem-dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-visualization/technologies/turing-architecture/NVIDIA-Turing-Architecture-Whitepaper.pdf

PS5 Pro GPU, AI processing wise, is rated as 300 TOPS (peak) and that is also INT8, but even Cerny was saying they do not quite hit that peak figure yet and why. So not sure it is correct to say PSSR currently requires 300 TOPS of power to be fair.

I was thinking of Turing's FP16 TFLOPs, which nvidia always refers to as AI TOPs, see Blackwell paper (FP4 in that case)

Which for Turing (2080? 2080 super?) at ~89 from this slide. 2080 is 84 from whitepaper



nvidia refers always to AI TOPS as FPx maximum throughput math without or with sparsity. Could just be a nomenclature difference between companies of what their flagship AI TOPs are but either way

XeSS somehow works on Pascal which has no int8 so it is making a conversion to FP16?

DLSS 1 worked on FP16 according to their first slide but I can't find exactly which format DLSS 2 uses.

I have a lot of questions on how a CNN network with a ton of weights would use integers and not floating points to optimize storage, or how you have so many layers during inference with weights being as simplistic as integers for pixels and not lose accuracy with all the matrix multiplications? I mean probably it can work, there's a ton of papers on a monthly basis for AI but it kind of goes against traditional CNN models.

But regardless, even if we say DLSS 2 works as INT8, a 2070 has 119 TOPs 8-bit integers and there's no way that DLSS just eats it all up and even lower for a 2060. This is a far cry from claiming that FSR 4 needs ~700 TOPs. I don't think that's possible.

I don't follow all RDNA 3 stats but surely it has above 100 TOPS for int 8?

779 TOPS for FSR4 seems insanely wasteful. Where have AMD said these numbers? Or is it also including frame-gen?

 

[SolidQ]

779 TOPS for FSR4 seems insanely wasteful. Where have AMD said these numbers?

Just marketing, There is N44, which also working with FSR4

 

[Buggy Loop]

Just marketing, There is N44, which also working with FSR4

Did peoples just take the max throughput of INT8 with sparsity?

That doesn't work like that. FSR 4 upscaling for sure doesn't just gobble up all of it. On top that they'll use frame-gen with AI no? That needs space. They promote neural radiance cache path tracing... that needs ML space.

I'm not understanding why RDNA 3 would not have the upscaler at least.

 

[SolidQ]

I'm not understanding why RDNA 3 would not have the upscaler at least.

There is info, RDNA3 no FP8, throught BF16 only

Did peoples just take the max throughput of INT8 with sparsity?

seems so.


for RDNA5
New radical shader reordering and sorting mechanism to minimize divergence described here

STREAMING WAVE COALESCER CIRCUIT - ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES, INC.

<div p-id="p-0001">A Streaming Wave Coalescer (SWC) circuit stores a first set of state values associated with a first subset of threads of a first wave in a bin based on each of the first subset of t

www.freepatentsonline.com

 

[Buggy Loop]

There is info, RDNA3 no FP8, throught BF16 only


seems so.

Either way

I said I would fall off my chair if FSR 4 used transformer models and it seems to make an hybrid of best of both so that will be interesting to compare. So midway through my fall

but that is very positive, can't wait to see comparisons. Seeing AMD take modern features seriously is good news for everyone. A big fuck U to all /r/AMD that kept arguing "no need for upscalers, no need for RT, blah blah", bunch of clowns. These hardcore fans were AMD's worst enemy.

I'll wait to see path tracing benchmarks as really the only games my 3080 Ti sweats with is if I enable path tracing.

 

[SolidQ]

said I would fall off my chair if FSR 4 used transformer models and it seems to make an hybrid of best of both so that will be interesting to compare. So midway through my fall

Just watch Fabie video. There a lot hints. He's done with testing RX 9070XT

Seeing AMD take modern features seriously is good news for everyone

first version ofc will be worse, but it's AI now and will get improvements overtime.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Just watch Fabie video. There a lot hints. He's done with testing RX 9070XT



first version ofc will be worse, but it's AI now and will get improvements overtime.

When review drops? That will be an interesting day

I'm all for a fire under Nvidia's ass. Been saying since Ada that these are bad prices. Nvidia leaving the mid range with no MSRP control, no references, barely any cards at MSRP will position them to a slow reaction. You can't just tell your AIBs to go from $999 to $650.

If AMD doesn't let AIBs out of control and they have stock, it might finally pierce a top 10 steam hardware survey list.

 

[SolidQ]

When review drops? That will be an interesting day

5th march
i've above posted china numbers only MSRP model
Sapphire Nitro+ looks pretty nice, but it's with 12pwr cable.

I'll wait to see path tracing benchmarks as really the only games my 3080 Ti

too bad, there no neutral games for better comparision. All PT games is pro NV

 

[Buggy Loop]

too bad, there no neutral games for better comparision. All PT games is pro NV

Naw I don’t believe that drivel. It’s all agnostic calls via DXR and games like cyberpunk 2077 the most Nvidia tech bench around for features were optimized for RT mode with inline DXR 1.1 which favours AMD so I really don’t believe these conspiracies. They used whatever is best for performances, including inline rather than sticking to DXR 1.0.

Can AMD handle the agnostic DXR call and perform? Most likely yes. I’m sure it will place well in CB2077 overdrive. Not as good as nvidia but a huge leap over RDNA 3

 

[Crayon]

Either way

I said I would fall off my chair if FSR 4 used transformer models and it seems to make an hybrid of best of both so that will be interesting to compare. So midway through my fall

but that is very positive, can't wait to see comparisons. Seeing AMD take modern features seriously is good news for everyone. A big fuck U to all /r/AMD that kept arguing "no need for upscalers, no need for RT, blah blah", bunch of clowns. These hardcore fans were AMD's worst enemy.

I'll wait to see path tracing benchmarks as really the only games my 3080 Ti sweats with is if I enable path tracing.

 

[SABRE220]

Good luck porting FSR4 to hardware that will not be able to run it at any decent speed.

I think youre confused regarding FSR4, it was never claimed that 700 TOPS is a requirement for FSR4. It was simply marketing material that said FSR4 was accelerated by over 700 TOPS worth of compute power as hype material for the 9700 presentation. FSR4 will also be ported to the 9600 series...DLSS4 runs without much penalty even on the 3xxx series which is within the realm of the pro in tops.

 

[Bojji]

I think youre confused regarding FSR4, it was never claimed that 700 TOPS is a requirement for FSR4. It was simply marketing material that said FSR4 was accelerated by over 700 TOPS worth of compute power as hype material for the 9700 presentation. FSR4 will also be ported to the 9600 series...DLSS4 runs without much penalty even on the 3xxx series which is within the realm of the pro in tops.

I don't expect that high cost of FSR4 (obviously) but rDNA4 has hardware that accelerates it in the most optimal way. They will have to make separate version for rdna3 that will have worse quality or higher cost most likely.

 

[Panajev2001a]

But regardless, even if we say DLSS 2 works as INT8, a 2070 has 119 TOPs 8-bit integers and there's no way that DLSS just eats it all up and even lower for a 2060. This is a far cry from claiming that FSR 4 needs ~700 TOPs. I don't think that's possible.

With the 2080 having about 160 TOPS, 2070 should a bit closer but then again it does not really matter.

Also, looking at:

https://images.nvidia.com/aem-dam/Solutions/geforce/ada/nvidia-ada-gpu-architecture.pdf

and

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Graphics Cards

For gamers and creators.

www.nvidia.com

It looks like nVIDIA is calling AI TOPS the 8 bit INT8 variety. FP32 performance of the tensor cores is a LOT lower, like 10x lower or so.

With that said I do not find 700+ 8 bits INT8 TOPS exaggerated for RDNA4 (it is about 1/2 of the 4090 peak) and I am not saying that they cannot run FSR4 with less in the future… also its FP32 or FP16 performance would be equivalently lower of course.

 

[delirium trigger]

The 9070 at 550 is reminiscent of the 7900xt being 900 at launch and only a 100 dollars cheaper than the xtx. It's a silly buy at that price and almost guaranteed to come down quickly.

 

[SonGoku]

Yeah they should’ve gone with more vram on the XT. Based on my experience with 4080S 16GB is not enough for 4K ray tracing on Indiana Jones for example, had to lower settings.

The 9700XT is not on par with 4070Ti RT performance what makes you think it will have enough grunt for PT at 4k in indy?
Until benchmarks drops im unsure even if it will be enough for PT at 1440p

 

[SABRE220]

I don't expect that high cost of FSR4 (obviously) but rDNA4 has hardware that accelerates it in the most optimal way. They will have to make separate version for rdna3 that will have worse quality or higher cost most likely.

I'm pretty sure the ps5pro is based on rdna4 albeit it seems held back badly by paltry clocks speeds and bottlenecks. Makes me curious actually why it's doing so badly in rt workloads compared to rdna4.

 

[Bojji]

I'm pretty sure the ps5pro is based on rdna4 albeit it seems held back badly by paltry clocks speeds and bottlenecks. Makes me curious actually why it's doing so badly in rt workloads compared to rdna4.

RT part is from RDNA4. Raster is RDNA2 and ML part is "custom" (we don't know if it's RDNA3 or something completely different).

GPU Frankenstein.

 

[MikeM]

RT part is from RDNA4. Raster is RDNA2 and ML part is "custom" (we don't know if it's RDNA3 or something completely different).

GPU Frankenstein.

I don’t think RDNA3 had any ability to do FP8.

 

[FingerBang]

The 9070 at 550 is reminiscent of the 7900xt being 900 at launch and only a 100 dollars cheaper than the xtx. It's a silly buy at that price and almost guaranteed to come down quickly.

It's highly likely the cost of producing the 9070 non-XT is really similar to the XT so at the moment AMD won't produce many of them. Eventually the price will come down, like it happened to the 7900XT. The 6800 non XT was also another weird card that was hard to find and made little sense at launch until it became the best bang for buck when RDNA3 launched.

It's a weird strategy. I imagine it simply makes sense for AMD to design the two variants at the same time even though volume, price and availability will vary a lot during the life of the product.

 

[SKYF@ll]

I'm pretty sure the ps5pro is based on rdna4 albeit it seems held back badly by paltry clocks speeds and bottlenecks. Makes me curious actually why it's doing so badly in rt workloads compared to rdna4.

The PS5 Pro supports the BVH8 traversal shader (RDNA4), but I think it's still running the BVH4 used in PS5 games as a backwards compatible version.
Also, even the PS5 Pro has a weak CPU, so it will have a hard time running heavy RT.
However, Fortnite appears to be utilizing the PS5 Pro's BVH8.

Fortnite
PS5: 1080p/60fps SW Lumen
PS5 Pro: 1350p/60fps HW Lumen(RT) *RT reflections=High *Diffuse lighting=Epic
(While other games only get a boost of around 35%, Fortnite has increased resolution by 50% and added advanced RT.)

 

[SolidQ]

per CU

 

[TransTrender]

Mystery of the Druids?

 

[Fbh]

Man if there doesn't end up being anything unexpectedly wrong with the 9070 XT and I can find it at near MSRP, I might finally make the jump to PC.
Who am I kidding though, it's probably gong to be like $1200 around these parts.