Schmick
Member
This is not what happened for FS2020.
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Can I be honest here...I don’t think the Xbox Series S is going to last very long into the generation.
- Thread starter Derktron
- Start date
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
While impressive it doesn't negate my point
MrFunSocks
Banned
It doesn't prove your point at all. PC is the baseline, not XSS. PC is also the baseline for PS5.
twilo99
Member
Which PC exactly?
GHG
Gold Member
It's even been discounted by 5% on Amazon here (along with an extra 10% off available when checking out with certain bank cards - so up to 15% off) in the UAE. It's always been in stock since launch.
Meanwhile the Series X and PS5 are only available via resellers at premium prices (the respective prices for those 2 consoles gives you a good indication of demand).
MrFunSocks
Banned
Whichever minimum specs the developers decide the game needs to run on, which is always less than the XSS.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Lower PC specs is the lowest common denominator aka baseline since every Xbox game has to be ported. With PS5 games the PS5 will be the baseline for most of their games, they can be ported years later to PC if Sony chooses
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MrFunSocks
Banned
You're talking about exclusives only then. For Xbox Series exclusives they just make for Series X and can scale down because the CPU is the same and the GPU has the same feature set, just less power.
Something tells me this is a pointless argument though.
Your definition of "feature" is confined to things both have but they do not have the same features. It's akin to me saying PS4 and PS5 share the same features then listing things like storage space, wifi, etc.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
The biggest problem is the ram it's too slow and there's not enough of it. MS should've just did a XSX digital edition but they were tempted to try to capture more of the casual market with a cheaper console but we'll see how things play out
They usually decide based on the lowest spec popular console they wish to support. Guess which console that would be if they wish to support the Series X on a next gen only game. You guessed it, the Series S.
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twilo99
Member
If that is the case then it all becomes a rather arbitrary situation, wouldn't you say? The problem is a "low end PC" can be anything.. have you thought how many different low-lower-lowest PC you can have on the market?
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
It's not that simple, you don't just start with crap and then upgrade it to the higher platform, there's more to it than that but I've given up trying to explain it, it's complicated for some on this board.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
The afterthought where they get the larger bulk of their sales. Lmao. You don't know what you're saying. Leave the thread and stop embarrassing yourself. To suggest the games are not developed from the very conception of them for consoles, where there's a much larger true installed-base of potential gamers and where all those publishers sell bucketloads more copies than on PC, it shows how embarrassingly ignorant you are.
What a clever picture you post, you are so smart. If you actually read what I posted, you would see that I was talking about some particular games, dumb ass.
Try harder next time. Maybe go back to your Fortnite game before mom tells you it's time for bed.
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
It's the other way around because not everything scales linearly. Resolution and framerate are the easier things to scale but everything else gets trickier
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
It looking worse is the point isn't it? Why are people shocked that a $300 console with a weaker GPU won't run games that look as good as the systems that costs hundreds more? Did you guys really expect the XSS to be a no compromise console? The real question is are there any GAMEPLAY compromises? Missing levels? Characters? Anything related to the actual game structure? All anyone can do is complain the system has weaker graphics like that is a revelation. The only thing compromised on the XSS is graphical detail.
So you are operating under the belief that games scale up? How did games like Skyrim and Doom work on the Switch? Do you think developers made those games with the Switch in mind?
Oh so he would know about the features of the device then right? Do you have any comments from him made recently? All I see are year old comments from before the XSS came out.
With regard to memory requirements I am sure you know that the lower the resolution of a game the less video memory is needed. You should also know that graphic details can take up huge amounts of memory. The XSS running games at lower resolution will keep it from ever needing the amount of memory systems running games at high resolutions would. Coupling that with the inherent features of the system should allow the XSS to be supported this entire generation.
You do no need the Seagate memory to save games on the XSS. An external drive will do just fine. You clearly don't know much about the system.
I'm not deluded enough to pretend 364GB is fine, or that constantly moving games back and forth between the SSD and HDD isnt a pain in the arse. The real problem is that you're in your feelings about this and you're defending the Series S purely on the basis that it's Xbox. Pretending that every 'casual' just has three games over a generation, and/or that's it's a non-issue because you declare it so is a nonsense.
Again just repeating the same point. Xbox was massive here in the 360 era. Demand for the Series X is high here and it's constantly sold out. You know what isn't sold out and hasnt been for ages? I can write this down and post it to you if it will help you get it through that thick skull of yours. This really isn't complicated at all. You just don't know anything about the European market - that's clear every time you post something in this thread.
You're still running with this? 1440p support, and cloud saves outside of subscription? About 10 people in the world give a damn about this. 99.9% of gamers play on a TV. A lot of PC players hook their PCs to a TV too. How desperate are you to cling to this and talk about triggered when you've been getting emotional bringing a lot of additional nonsense into a thread specifically about the Series S, and being unable to accept that the hardware is unwanted in what is a big Xbox market, and vastly inferior to the Digital Edition PS5 despite being a mere £100 less. Smart delivery 'hur hur hur'?! Wtf is wrong with you, are you having an aneurysm while you post your console war bait lol. More talk about PS5 upgrades when it's not related to the thread topic. More deflection rubbish.
No idea why you're talking about who's winning what. I've just stated what's obvious to anybody who doesn't have their head buried in the sand regarding the Series S. You're obsessed about Xbox Vs Playstation and can't make a logical analysis of the console because you feel the need to 'protect' your favourite brand. Let me give you a clue - your emotive defence isn't going to help sales of the Series S no matter how hard you try.
You typed all that and are still wrong. The thread was about the technology of the XSS (120fps titles and resolution) and had nothing to do with sales or Europe. You brought those things up to obfuscate the reality that the more expensive system can't do things the cheaper one can. The bottom line is no matter your histrionics the 'vastly inferior' console has more features and a lower price. The very definition of a better value. You can whine, you can complain you can ignore the facts if you wish but that is the truth.
If a person is going around trying to say the XSS won't make it to the end generation how will a system with even fewer features make it? The answer of course is both will be fine. Perhaps you'd do well to just enjoy your PS5 or whatever console you have and ignore what you are clueless about. No one is forcing you or anyone else to buy an XSS but like it or not isn't going anywhere and that is great news for value oriented customers. You can't show any reason why the XSS can't run current generation titles and it's best to simply ignore what clearly isn't directed at you. There is no reason to listen to you or any other detractors when there are actually people who own the console who have far more credibility.
It is always surprising that people who are affected the least are the most vocal and negative about the XSS. Why not simply just ignore it and focus on what you do like.
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
We're talking about games being developed for two different consoles and lower PC specs at release
Not games ported years later with drastic changes made
MrFunSocks
Banned
Exactly. I'm not the one saying things are being held back by such and such because it's a stupid and pointless thing to say because there's no way to prove it.
For 1080p it's more than enough and more than fast enough. A digital xbox wouldn't have had the same effect, which is offering a console at USD$299.
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CityHunter1981
An Absolute Desaster
I think the problem is how Microsoft is marketing the console. It is a great console together with the game pass to play all the games released until this point in a very good quality and I would have marketed it as that.
I think the mistake is that Microsoft market it as a XBOX Series X cheaper option, but still demand that all future games ran on it. We are still in the cross generation phase, so it does not affect the games too much, but at the point where Sony drops the cross gen policy, I think Microsoft will be lacking behind.
I know that Microsoft said multiple times that it will not hold back the Series X, but it will in the end, because developers will always have in their mind that the game must also be playable on a weaker console and try to find compromises.
I think we are seeing it with Sony at this point. God of War 2 looks graphically disappointing. Sure, there is more detail and higher resolution, but it does not look like a big jump from God of War 1. Now lets look at Ratchet and Clank, which looks impressive with much more detail and things happening on screen. So I am sure God of War 2 suffered from the fact that it is a cross gen title.
Yes, I know one of the bif features of Ratchet is the fast loading and seamless transition between levels, a feature which is also possible on the Series S due to its SSD, but there are a lot of other factors which will hold games back (detail, things happening on the screen simultaneously), which would require the developer to carefully adjust each version of the game to run at its best and I don't think many developers will have the money / time to make the series X version of the game vastly different than the series S version.
I think the mistake is that Microsoft market it as a XBOX Series X cheaper option, but still demand that all future games ran on it. We are still in the cross generation phase, so it does not affect the games too much, but at the point where Sony drops the cross gen policy, I think Microsoft will be lacking behind.
I know that Microsoft said multiple times that it will not hold back the Series X, but it will in the end, because developers will always have in their mind that the game must also be playable on a weaker console and try to find compromises.
I think we are seeing it with Sony at this point. God of War 2 looks graphically disappointing. Sure, there is more detail and higher resolution, but it does not look like a big jump from God of War 1. Now lets look at Ratchet and Clank, which looks impressive with much more detail and things happening on screen. So I am sure God of War 2 suffered from the fact that it is a cross gen title.
Yes, I know one of the bif features of Ratchet is the fast loading and seamless transition between levels, a feature which is also possible on the Series S due to its SSD, but there are a lot of other factors which will hold games back (detail, things happening on the screen simultaneously), which would require the developer to carefully adjust each version of the game to run at its best and I don't think many developers will have the money / time to make the series X version of the game vastly different than the series S version.
Magnific0giganticus
Banned
Particular games my ass. You're here in a forum talking so much shit when you don't have the first clue about the obvious. Get the hell out of here with your weak shit.
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THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
Particular games my ass. You're here in a forum talking so much shit when you don't have the first clue about the obvious. Get the hell out of here with your weak shit.
Oh no another clever pic, amazing! So witty! Lol
DarkMage619
$MSFT
Uh no because the XSS has features the X1 does NOT have. This is nothing like comparing the PS4 and PS5 seeing how those have vastly different architectures and capabilities. Name a feature missing between the XSS and XSX like I can name features missing between the PS4 and 5. You realize that they are from different generations right? I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding what the XSS is, who it is for, and what features it has.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
It's a good thing the XSS has the same capabilities as the XSX minus the graphics horsepower huh. Developers have an entire suite of RDNA 2 features that are present on both consoles unlike when games are ported to the Switch. There is no reason games cannot be made that work on both the XSX and XSS. The vast assortment of games on the PC prove that point.
MrFunSocks
Banned
There’s nothing that the X can do that the S can’t do at a lower resolution. They share the same architecture and SOC, just with less power. It’s not going to ever hold anything back.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Flight sim has already proven that the xss version will be downgraded while the xsx gets higher settings.
Metro runs at 512p on the series s in the forest levels. It doesn’t look like devs have any qualms over maintaining standards. They will design around the xsx and downgrade whatever they can to create a port.
This , people will just get a worser looking game on series s.
Md Ray
Member
I do. Watch his recent DOOM interview from two months ago with Digital Foundry where John brings up Series S asking why ray tracing is missing from that console, Billy replies that they tried RT out on Series S, even with optimization, they couldn't so they chose to drop RT altogether. Then he adds, there are differences in the hardware, y'know" in other words, even with optimization the S wasn't capable of RT in DOOM due to "differences in the HW" i.e. hardware limitation. He initially brought up two major issues with the console: one was split memory banks with drastically slower speeds (bandwidth) which he said will be a major issue, the second big issue was the amount of memory itself, and how much lower it was.
And now we see the results of those issues, no RT from his game on the console and he was right from the get-go. We know the game already makes use of VRS tier 2 on Xbox (even the PC version doesn't), who knows maybe they're even using SFS here which would come under the "optimizations" he spoke of.
We won't know until they do something like a SIGGRAPH or GDC talk. Still, features like SFS are only going to get you so far, it's a memory-saving feature, not an infinite memory feature. At the end of the day, you are going to hit a wall one way or another. IMO MS should have added a bit more memory and slightly more BW to avoid situations like this, and to tackle the issues that Billy brought up. After all, this is the talented id Software we're talking about... MS 1P studio, not some no-name dev company from the industry.
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I'm saying your definition of similar "features" is flawed as these machines share more similarities than they do differences and the difference is only incremental improvements which affect game experience. The difference between an SSD and a HDD is speed. The difference between raytracing in a game and no raytracing in a game is GPU power. The difference between being able to install a game or not is storage space. These aren't have or doesn't have "features" these are does it have enough.
You are thinking of features as some kind of have or doesn't have and looking blindly at only the similarities but even then there is the very basic one where it doesn't have disc support.
The XSS has "features" just as a PS4 has "features" but its features are underpowered/slower or not enough. When a game has no raytracing on XSS but does on a XSX/PS5 are you missing a feature? When a PS4 game runs at 30fps but a PS5 one at 60fps are you missing a feature?
Schmick
Member
Kinda proves what you are saying is not entirely true.
SkylineRKR
Member
lol S won't hold back Series X. Get real. By that metric, native PS5 games should look considerably better than Series X games since Series S is also a factor for MS. This won't be the case. When crossgen dies out they will use PS5 and/or Series X as base and downgrade for S, it doesn't make sense to make the Series S the baseline. And yeah you will see some sub 1080p stuff on SS, or a framerate cut in half. But Series X games will be at least on par with PS5 games, meaning S wasn't a factor.
As for RT, even the PS5 and Series X struggle to even get RT effects. In a lot of cases the framerate is either halved or worse, or the resolution is lowered to 1080p levels which in my opinion isn't worth it at all. Sure I can play DMC V with RT, but only at an awful framerate or at 1080p with turbo mode off. Like, thank you but no.
For consoles its a gimmick right now. Its pretty much how 1080p was an advertised gimmick for PS3 and 360, working with a select few mostly simple games (and even then they turned out to be something like 1200x1080). Try the next generation.
As for RT, even the PS5 and Series X struggle to even get RT effects. In a lot of cases the framerate is either halved or worse, or the resolution is lowered to 1080p levels which in my opinion isn't worth it at all. Sure I can play DMC V with RT, but only at an awful framerate or at 1080p with turbo mode off. Like, thank you but no.
For consoles its a gimmick right now. Its pretty much how 1080p was an advertised gimmick for PS3 and 360, working with a select few mostly simple games (and even then they turned out to be something like 1200x1080). Try the next generation.
Riky
$MSFT
I do. Watch his recent DOOM interview from two months ago with Digital Foundry where John brings up Series S asking why ray tracing is missing from that console, Billy replies that they tried RT out on Series S, even with optimization, they couldn't so they chose to drop RT altogether. Then he adds, there are differences in the hardware, y'know" in other words, even with optimization the S wasn't capable of RT in DOOM due to "differences in the HW" i.e. hardware limitation. He initially brought up two major issues with the console: one was split memory banks with drastically slower speeds (bandwidth) which he said will be a major issue, the second big issue was the amount of memory itself, and how much lower it was.
And now we see the results of those issues, no RT from his game on the console and he was right from the get-go. We know the game already makes use of VRS tier 2 on Xbox (even the PC version doesn't), who knows maybe they're even using SFS here which would come under the "optimizations" he spoke of.
I'm sure they could get Ray Tracing into the Series S version but probably not at the resolution and framerate they were happy with, with Metro they decided to do it and cut back on other settings. When your game is a twitch shooter that doesn't work so well, it's also a last gen upgrade and originally a third party studio, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend this is a first party release when it was all planned before the acquisition. Even DF described it as the first third party game to use Tier 2 VRS, making all those people who were on the Dirt 5 VRS makes it look bad train look as foolish as I said.
Also the game won't be using SFS, Jason Ronald said he didn't expect any games to be using that feature until 2022 and it's not something you can just add in like Tier 2 VRS it would take a serious rewrite of the engine.
We will hopefully see the benefits of SFS sometime next year, I expect them to be pretty transformative.
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Md Ray
Member
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Riky
$MSFT
Weaker.
It's 4tflops compared to 12.15 of Series X.
Everyone knows this.
It still runs the game at a rock solid 120fps, go back to Jason Ronald video you love so much and watch it in full, he talks about Series S and the next gen VA attributes, most of the talk is about framerates. No last gen console could run this game at 120fps.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Control is built to run on last gen consoles. Not sure why the Series S would hold it back.It is already holding back 3rd party games on both the PS5 and the XSX
Md Ray
Member
No need to get triggered, mate. The CPU helps when it comes to 120FPS. But the S has issues regarding bandwidth and lower amounts of mem as Billy, id Software engine programmer, pointed out, which is why RT was omitted from the console.
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Md Ray
Member
They meant for future titles. They cited "hardware limitation" as the reason for not including the RT mode on it.
Riky
$MSFT
Not triggered at all, I don't feel the need to go into every Series S thread and troll. To get RT they could cut framerate or resolution, they didn't want to do that as they say in the interview you watched how important the clarity and framerate were to them. It looks and runs amazing on Series S, I know I've played it.
When they have an engine that uses SFS and Mesh Shaders as well they may be able to deliver RT, we'll see. Now their next game will be a first party release I'm sure they will be encouraged to use all the hardware features.
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Md Ray
Member
Gavin Stevens, the guy who took a lighter to burn his PS5's outer shell to prove PS5 was overheating. Sure, bud.
Others say otherwise.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
Dude said it's already holding back 3rd party games and you gave him a flaming emoji for it. I just wonder which games are being held back by Series S.
Riky
$MSFT
Which has what to do with Series S development?
SkylineRKR
Member
The guy is suggesting it for some reasons that don't make sense. If that were to be the case, we wouldn't see sub 1080p S games right now but rather Series X games being held back. How does Series S hold back Hitman 3 on Series X? Or Flight Sim. Or, Forza Horizon 5 which looks spectacular.
Control pushes a lot of particles and physics. Its 1440p/30/RT on PS5 and Series X which I think is par for the course if you see its requirements. I don't see any holding back in there. its the most you're gonna get on these consoles, especially that early into the cycle.
Control pushes a lot of particles and physics. Its 1440p/30/RT on PS5 and Series X which I think is par for the course if you see its requirements. I don't see any holding back in there. its the most you're gonna get on these consoles, especially that early into the cycle.
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Md Ray
Member
Isn't he a faker? What makes his statement more credible than Id Software's?
phil_t98
#SonyToo
So all they ps5 cross gen games are being designed for the PS4 first and then just ported across? Even GT7 which originally was stated as being PS5 exclusive?
so by your own statement they will scrap the PS5 version and just make a PS4 version and scale it up?
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Zuzu
Member
It'll last until the end of the generation but games released towards the end of the generation may have to run at sub-720p resolutions, no more than 30fps and significantly reduced graphics settings in order to do it. The manner in which games run on the system will depend on how demanding game engines are in 5-6 years time.
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Riky
$MSFT
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Rest of the planet without super fast internet connections and unlimited caps are crying already.
Md Ray
Member
That didn't answer my question.
Also, cool to know that he says idTech 7 will utilize all of the hardware it can get and proves that they tried their best on the S to get RT in with all the optimization, but couldn't due to differences in the hardware.