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People of colour in Kingdom Come: Deliverance - A discussion (Read the OP)

besada

Banned
Medieval POC were asked a question, and they answered it according to their documented research and evidence. That's really as far as it should go.

Why the heck do people go out of their way to try to silence people with a point of view that they are apparently uncomfortable with.

Because criticism of a thing people love provokes atavistic defense responses and some folks can't tamp them down. We see that here on GAF all the time. Someone will write an article about video games and women, and instead of accepting or disagreeing with the criticism, we get a ton of whining that people are criticizing a game, as if games should be sacrosanct from criticism.

It's juvenile and unrealistic to think that our hobby is somehow immune to external criticism. In the past there was none of this because no one cared about video games as a medium for communication. But part and parcel of a medium growing out of adolescence is the reception, inclusion, and understanding of critical opinions on the medium.
 

rottame

Member
Kind of weird to see people get do up in arms about a blog post that doesn't really affect anything.

I mean, it's not odd that people want to be represented in their entertainment. Our more accurately, don't want to feel excluded from it.

Where does all the "how dare they"sorry of sentiment come from?

Because asking why something is NOT in a piece of entertainment doesn't make much sense. Why there are no gay people in 2001 A Space Odissey? Why no black people in Joyce's Ulysses? Why no trans people in Carver's Where I'm Calling From?
 
I will also say that the snark from Medieval POC is completely unnecessary and detracts from their message. No reason to make this an 'us' vs 'them' of any sort.

I will give them points for not outright dropping "racist" or "sexist" on Warhorse undeservedly.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Warhorse called its system, “the ultimate character customization tool ever invented,” and added that your gear will get bloody and dirty as you slog your way through battles, and that many parameters of an avatar’s body can be altered.

That’s a pretty hefty claim to make along with the total exclusion of women and people of color.

It's a lot easier to make a detailed system for only one kind of body type than it is to make the same detailed system for a lot of body types.

Also, iirc, they said they were out to tell a very specific story about a guy who... I forget the details. But yeah, it's a specific story, so it's not really crazy that they'd put a playable female character after the stuff that would help them polish off that story. You can't just go "oh yeah, now the player's a girl!" I think they want to make that story they want to tell the best it can be, and THEN they'll look for other options.

I'm sitting here writing a video game right now. The protagonist is a girl. She has to be a girl, because that's who she is in my head. I'm being even less flexible than Warhorse is; I won't allow any kind of gender swapping. The protagonist is female and that's final.

I think it's important to respect the work of the artist. If the artist wants to tell a story about a white male, cool, go for it. I, as an artist, have stories about white males, white females, an Indian guy, and a ton of other people I'm pretty consistently developing. I think if I started getting pressured to make the Indian guy a white dude, or make the girl a guy in my other project, I'd get angry, just like if someone told me that my white dude should be someone else.

Social Justice nonsense is social justice nonsense. Back when Fellini made La Strada, a bunch of social justice people got really mad at him, because Fellini, one of the foremost Neo-realist directors, had made this intensely personal film. Neo-realism, according to these social justice guys, was supposed to be about society, about criticizing its flaws and stuff. Instead, Fellini had made this incredibly beautiful film about how a man took advantage of and destroyed a woman--and I realize that sounds horrible, but the film is about how our actions affect other people. It says that destroying other people is ultimately destroying yourself. It's marvelous. There are stories of people who'd abandoned their families returning home after seeing the film. For all the power and beauty of La Strada, the only thing these stupid critics could see was that it wasn't doing the thing they wanted it to do. Never mind that it changed lives, made people better--it wasn't about society, and so it was bad. And they hammered it. This film went on to basically codify "Best forein language film" at the Oscars, though, and Fellini went on to make some of the best films of all time.

People who try to tell artists what they should say aren't people worth listening to, because they're so often wrong, or missing the point. Art should be good, but arguing for social justice is so often just nonsense from people who won't make their own art.

I really, really believe strongly in the integrity of the artist's vision, if that wasn't obvious.
 

captainpat

Member
I will also say that the snark from Medieval POC is completely unnecessary and detracts from their message. No reason to make this an 'us' vs 'them' of any sort. It does unfortunately remind me of those hilarious extremist feminists angry at George R.R Martin for his portrayal of women in ASOIAF

If main issue people have with the criticism is tone then they don't have much of an argument.
 

Coconut

Banned
I haven't been paying attention to this game but it is messed that they seem to have had bedable women before playable if Medieval POC is correct. Unsurprised, that the place housing r/mensrights breed an anti-"social justice" coalition.

Well men's rights stuff is on neogaf a lot as well so that's an unfair statement.
 

teiresias

Member
Wait, the devs are touting having the most advanced character creation tool ever and you can't make women or non-white characters with it?!?! WTF?
 
Because criticism of a thing people love provokes atavistic defense responses and some folks can't tamp them down. We see that here on GAF all the time. Someone will write an article about video games and women, and instead of accepting or disagreeing with the criticism, we get a ton of whining that people are criticizing a game, as if games should be sacrosanct from criticism.

It's juvenile and unrealistic to think that our hobby is somehow immune to external criticism. In the past there was none of this because no one cared about video games as a medium for communication. But part and parcel of a medium growing out of adolescence is the reception, inclusion, and understanding of critical opinions on the medium.

I think the criticism is sound and do not see any fact that this game should be immune from it. History is constantly whitewashed or focuses on POCs who were more or less attached within the status quo (how many white Americans know who Stokely Carmichael, or Marcus Garvey were? Yet everyone knows a blackman had something to do with peanut butter for some god damn reason)

I just question the probabilities of POC inclusion due to the game's scope. THe game is in reality not very big in geographical terms and I think the historical argumentation and random sampling would lend the area historically to either having or not having POC. It is not as if POC were spread evenly in the middle ages...

For example, the percentage and or historical mentioning of people of jewish cultural background in the U.S. is signficant. But if you go to hobunk town whyoming, you probably will find little to no people of jewish heritage.
 
Wait, the devs are touting having the most advanced character creation tool ever and you can't make women or non-white characters with it?!?! WTF?

Yes, because the game is going for a realistic angle, and it'd be insulting if they shoehorned people of color and other sexes.

How is this a hard thing to grasp?
 

besada

Banned
I I think if I started getting pressured to make the Indian guy a white dude, or make the girl a guy in my other project, I'd get angry, just like if someone told me that my white dude should be someone else.

No one's pressuring them to change their game. A person interested in whether there would be people of color (who did exist at the time, in that place, in small numbers) in the game asked them and they said there wouldn't be for historical reasons.

The same person asked a Tumblr dweller who specializes in POC during the time period whether there were POC in Bohemia in the time period, and she suggested that there would have been some, so exclusion of them was a choice by the creators.

Then Reddit it turned it into a big shit storm. Neither the Tumblr dweller, nor the originator of the question, sent any sort of demand to Warhorse that they alter their art.

You can make any sort of art you want to make, but if that art appears to other people to be excluding segments of the population for no good reason (or doing anything else someone might not like), some people are going to question your decisions as an artist. And that's okay. Making art doesn't protect you from criticism, it invites criticism. If you, or Warhorse, don't want your work to be criticized, then you ought not make it public, because the purpose of publishing art is to communicate, and responses from critics are part of that communication.
 

MacNille

Banned
The arugument made by both sides are fucking retarded. The anti-SJW dudes are fucking idiots and MPOC is a moron as well. lets ask our self here now. How big would a minority of mongol be in Bohemia? It would not be many of them at all. It is stupid! Both sides are idiots.
 
Because asking why something is NOT in a piece of entertainment doesn't make much sense. Why there are no gay people in 2001 A Space Odissey? Why no black people in Joyce's Ulysses? Why no trans people in Carver's Where I'm Calling From?


Well, that's not quite the situation, since the guy asked if there would be people of color in the game, was told it would be inaccurate, then the blog corrected that it wouldn't necessarily be inaccurate-- then everyone seemed angry.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Concerning Warhorse Games specifically, you could probably chalk the POC thing up to ignorance. I'd imagine that they, like most people, aren't really aware of what black people or people of color were doing during that time period. Maybe they should be researching it more since their aim is realism here, and the game does have another two years of development ahead of it.

And on the women thing, that depends a lot on what kind of storyline they're writing for the game. I imagine they'd have to write a completely different one for a knightess player character. They did exist, but probably not resulting from the same circumstances as standard knights, and probably weren't viewed in the same light. Maybe that calls for a much more dynamic world and systems than what Warhorse is currently building.
 

Atrophis

Member
Gotta love the SJW label. Saves me so much time ignoring peoples posts whenever they start throwing it around as an insult. If you accuse someone of being a SJW then I'm sorry but you are a tool. And calling someone a White Knight doesn't get you off either. You are a tool and you should probably stop posting about these social issues.
 

MacNille

Banned
Yes, because the game is going for a realistic angle, and it'd be insulting if they shoehorned people of color and other sexes.

How is this a hard thing to grasp?

If I can't play as a trangender black women, I will call it racist, transphopic and misogyny.
Just kidding, pls don't ban me :I
 

KKRT00

Member
The debate and an article is so stupid, i cant really understand why it did even got a thread here.

Game contains like maybe 400-500 population over 9km square, so the chance of meeting even one not white people is astronomically low in medieval times.
Heck, i live in Poland and if I go out of major cities the chance of meeting of someone not white is almost none and we are in XXI century, not XII century.

-----
Yes, because the game is going for a realistic angle, and it'd be insulting if they shoehorned people of color and other sexes.

How is this a hard thing to grasp?

There are women in the game ... and character creation tools are mostly for better variety of units in battles and You know what? Women did not fight in battles in medieval times.
 

Effect

Member
I'll shorten up my reply

The game is 2 years away, be critical then.

No. Companies need to understand that if they are going to be tossing out the words "realistic" or "authentic" so freely then they should have a full understanding of what those words mean and not simply be allowed to focus their usage on just graphical fidelity. It does piss me off when I see that crap tossed around so casually. It doesn't matter how far the game is out. They used the term at the start and should be made aware or or questioned. It's a problem at large I feel.
 

rottame

Member
Social Justice nonsense is social justice nonsense. Back when Fellini made La Strada, a bunch of social justice people got really mad at him, because Fellini, one of the foremost Neo-realist directors, had made this intensely personal film. Neo-realism, according to these social justice guys, was supposed to be about society, about criticizing its flaws and stuff. Instead, Fellini had made this incredibly beautiful film about how a man took advantage of and destroyed a woman--and I realize that sounds horrible, but the film is about how our actions affect other people. It says that destroying other people is ultimately destroying yourself. It's marvelous. There are stories of people who'd abandoned their families returning home after seeing the film. For all the power and beauty of La Strada, the only thing these stupid critics could see was that it wasn't doing the thing they wanted it to do. Never mind that it changed lives, made people better--it wasn't about society, and so it was bad. And they hammered it. This film went on to basically codify "Best forein language film" at the Oscars, though, and Fellini went on to make some of the best films of all time.

People who try to tell artists what they should say aren't people worth listening to, because they're so often wrong, or missing the point. Art should be good, but arguing for social justice is so often just nonsense from people who won't make their own art.

I really, really believe strongly in the integrity of the artist's vision, if that wasn't obvious.

This. So much this.

I think that most people who are such zealots when it comes to social matters just don't get or care about art. Like people complaining about Up not passing the Bechdel test.
 

Azih

Member
No. Companies need to understand that if they are going to be tossing out the words "realistic" or "authentic" so freely then they should have a full understanding of what those words mean and not simply be allowed to focus their usage on just graphical fidelity. It does piss me off when I see that crap tossed around so casually. It doesn't matter how far the game is out. They used the term at the start and should be made aware or or questioned. It's a problem at large I feel.

What are you saying? That unless they have POC then shouldn't use words like 'realistic' or 'authentic'? Even Medieval POC agrees with Warhorse that the limited scope of the game makes it completely reasonable to not have POC in there.
 
Wait, the devs are touting having the most advanced character creation tool ever and you can't make women or non-white characters with it?!?! WTF?

No, you just don't have a female protagonist. They even show a model of a man and a woman during their video showing their character system.

HqX1uV6.jpg
 

captainpat

Member
This. So much this.

I think that most people who are such zealots when it comes to social matters just don't get or care about art. Like people complaining about Up not passing the Bechdel test.

So they don't care or get art because they would like to be represented in it?
 
If I can't play as a trangender black women, I will call it racist, transphopic and misogyny.
Just kidding, pls don't ban me :I

Ur bn son.

Insulting how, exactly, and to whom?

Let's come at this with the Han to Jin Dynasty angle. Say Koei was like, hey, let's make a game that actually focused on Chinese history during the 3 kingdoms period instead of going off the book. There are many, many differences.

But they decided to throw in a black dude. He's there, he's shoehorned in because people were clamoring for it, and although that never happened, it's in the game.

I'm a huge fan of that time period. I'd be pissed if that happened. The game is marketing realism but yet here's this black guy. I'm black, and I'd love to see more variety of everything, just not when it compromises certain genres that rely on accuracy.
 

KKRT00

Member
No. Companies need to understand that if they are going to be tossing out the words "realistic" or "authentic" so freely then they should have a full understanding of what those words mean and not simply be allowed to focus their usage on just graphical fidelity. It does piss me off when I see that crap tossed around so casually. It doesn't matter how far the game is out. They used the term at the start and should be made aware or or questioned. It's a problem at large I feel.

And again, come to Poland or Czech Republic and find me non white people outside of major towns! And we are not in medieval times.
 
Gotta love the SJW label. Saves me so much time ignoring peoples posts whenever they start throwing it around as an insult. If you accuse someone of being a SJW then I'm sorry but you are a tool. And calling someone a White Knight doesn't get you off either. You are a tool and you should probably stop posting about these social issues.

So you agree with social justice warrior's methods of social change?
 

rottame

Member
Well, that's not quite the situation, since the guy asked if there would be people of color in the game, was told it would be inaccurate, then the blog corrected that it wouldn't necessarily be inaccurate-- then everyone seemed angry.

Except that, realistically speaking (country side of Central Europe in the middleage) in this case it would be unrealistic or extremely unlikely to find non-white people.
 

TalonJH

Member
As a black person, I really don't care one way or the other if there are POC in my fantasy media. That being said, I get upset at peoples reactions to someone wanting to see POC in their media. If you disagree with someone you have a conversation about it, you don't start yelling proclaiming the other sides opposing view as stupid.
 

Durante

Member
Death threats are silly, but this is is one instance in which the whole "issue" truly is entirely fabricated by "social justice warriors".

Taking a random 9km² rural bohemian area in the middle ages and getting upset if there are no black people there is fucking stupid. That's not racism, that's statistics.

As a black person, I really don't care one way or the other if there are POC in my fantasy media. That being said, I get upset at peoples reactions to someone wanting to see POC in their media. If you disagree with someone you have a conversation about it, you don't start yelling proclaiming the other sides opposing view as stupid.
Even when it is?
 

Kilau

Gold Member
History should always be told as accurately as possible, the truth has no agenda.

As for the narrative of this game, that is up to them to decide, I don't believe in telling other people what to do. The reactions to medievalPOC are awful IMO.
 
See this is the attitude that makes social justice warriors so great.

Let it all out, tell us how you really feel.

This. So much this.

I think that most people who are such zealots when it comes to social matters just don't get or care about art. Like people complaining about Up not passing the Bechdel test.

Yeah comparing zealotry from neo-realists is totally the same thing as asking a developer who is selling their game as historically accurate why there is a historical inconsistency in their depiction of the time period in which their game is set.
 

Atrophis

Member
So you agree with social justice warrior's methods of social change?

Can you tell me what they are? I wasn't aware this was a centralised movement with a leadership and I'm not familiar with their tactics. Oh wait you are just pulling a straw man out of your ass? Don't waste my time dude.
 

besada

Banned
But they decided to throw in a black dude. He's there, he's shoehorned in because people were clamoring for it, and although that never happened, it's in the game.

Do you honestly think there were no black dudes in all of the Han Empire? The Han Empire was a hub of trading activity that drew merchants and caravans from across the known world. And they bought and sold slaves. I'd find anything set in a major trading city that only had Han to be a little weird, personally.
 
On the other side of things, you have Mount and Blade, who strives for a semi-realism but not in the sense of the historical aspect. Made up names and female warriors exist. You can even marry as a girl!

What needs to happen is a world where both Kingdom Come and Mount and Blade exist in near equal fashion. Variety is good, and no shoehorning necessary.

Do you honestly think there were no black dudes in all of the Han Empire? The Han Empire was a hub of trading activity that drew merchants and caravans from across the known world. And they bought and sold slaves. I'd find anything set in a major trading city that only had Han to be a little weird, personally.

It wasn't prevalent till the Tang Dynasty.

And obviously I'm not saying no people of color exist. I'm saying within numerous numbers. The Tang Dynasty had quite a few, but before that, it was much to even be noted. Again, I'm not saying it didn't exist. I'm saying it was incredibly rare.
 

rottame

Member
So they don't care or get art because they would like to be represented in it?

Exactly. Art is not about making sure that everyone's ethnicity, gender or ideas are represented. It's about specific characters and specific stories. Critizing Up because it doesn't pass the Bechdel test is like complaining that the latest Radiohead album doesn't have any clarinet. It's missing the point and not understanding what that piece of art or entertainment is about.
 

KKRT00

Member
Yeah comparing zealotry from neo-realists is totally the same thing as asking a developer who is selling their game as historically accurate why there is a historical inconsistency in their depiction of the time period in which their game is set.

No, it isnt historically inconsistent.. Lack of non-white people is actually totally realistic for the game's setting.
 

Ashtar

Member
Yes, because the game is going for a realistic angle, and it'd be insulting if they shoehorned people of color and other sexes.

How is this a hard thing to grasp?
but the question being posed here is if it would be shoe horning or not because if there were people of color there then it wouldn't really be shoe horning now would it?

Secondly no one is trying to FORCE warhorse to put in people of color or women, they themselves put that as a goal!

Everytime a topic comes up about race/ethnicity/ sex all the psychos come out. IF you're selling a game on REALISM and not including people because if REALISM then it's reasonable to ask if there's any actual evidence to back up your exclusion isn't it?

People are up in arms for daring to ask if there were any people of color at that time in the area.
You've got a guy who says you can't ask a question about a game lacking a feature? so if a game only allows you to turn to the right you can't question why that decision was made where you couldn't turn left?

Man I dunno about you guys sometimes
 

R1CHO

Member
A black person would be seen as some kind of magical appearance in a lot of places in Europe in the 20th century... for real.

That said, i don't really see a problem with the game having (or not having) npcs or playable characters of different races; so this is just another typical internet fabricated drama.
 
but the question being posed here is if it would be shoe horning or not because if there were people of color there then it wouldn't really be shoe horning now would it?

Secondly no one is trying to FORCE warhorse to put in people of color or women, they themselves put that as a goal!

Everytime a topic comes up about race/ethnicity/ sex all the psychos come out. IF you're selling a game on REALISM and not including people because if REALISM then it's reasonable to ask if there's any actual evidence to back up your exclusion isn't it?

People are up in arms for daring to ask if there were any people of color at that time in the area.
You've got a guy who says you can't ask a question about a game lacking a feature? so if a game only allows you to turn to the right you can't question why that decision was made where you couldn't turn left?

Man I dunno about you guys sometimes

You are drawing a lot of assumptions. All I've ever said, and many people here if you took the time to read the post, was that historically, it wasn't accurate. Nobody is wrong in questioning that. Only a select few are going out of their way to blame people for asking questions.

What I was getting at in the section that you posted was that it's already been explained numerous times here, so that drive-by comment doesn't serve much of a purpose when it's already been explained. A lot.

A black person would be seen as some kind of magical appearance in a lot of places in Europe in the 20th century... for real.

That said, i don't really see a problem with the game having (or not having) npcs or playable characters of different races; so this is just another typical internet fabricated drama.

Yeah, this really isn't controversy. People asked, it was answered, and some jerks decided to be mean about it when the whole thing was over. Now we sit on NeoGaf, kicking around rocks and saying 'hey' to the people who slowly trickle in.
 
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