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[aeolist]

I said undertone.

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of the arguments I read here do seem to me like are intended to imply that Warhorse made a racist choice.

i think their work as is and on its own is fine

considered in the context of an artistic medium and western culture that has clear problems depicting ethnic minorities well when they are depicted at all it is upholding the status quo, which isn't a good thing in my mind

the responses people made to an art history academic answering a direct question posted to them are evidence of why this status quo is bad

 

[NoirVisage]

No one was trying to force the devs to do anything; Medieval POC asked a question and got an answer, and gave their thoughts with regard to that answer.

The discomfort for most people, I would imagine, is that the devs have turned down an opportunity to appeal to more people by refusing to add color and polygons (although that can admittedly get expensive) in the name of keeping it real. It's not even something to get angry about, it's just like, "ok, that's one more."

Pretty much.
Some gamers, an unfortunate majority treat any issue that goes counter to their tastes as if its the government coming to get their guns, they get FURIOUS..its the craziest thing.

 

[Atrophis]

I'm still waiting on that medieval African RPG setting...

If anyone made such a thing the cries of "PC pandering anti-white hate game" would be deafening.

Oh and the player character would probably still be white.

 

[besada]

I said undertone.

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of the arguments I read here do seem to me like are intended to imply that Warhorse made a racist choice.

I have to admit that I find it a little strange that they're claiming historical accuracy as the reason no people of color are in the game, while simultaneously offering a female playable character. Granted there were certainly women warriors in the 15th century, but they were at least as rare as POC.

I don't know why they made the choices they did. But asking doesn't mean I'm calling them names, it means I'm asking.

I'm still waiting on that medieval African RPG setting...

I'd love this. Or an RPG set at the height of the Mayan Empire. Or a Han Dynasty PRG. Or an RPG set amongst the Indian Mughals.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, research is about whole Bohemia [mostly around Prague], not a land where game takes place.

Right, which means that the blogger in question was entirely correct in their comment that the developer choosing to set the game in a 3x3km area which contains only white people was a choice they made because they weren't aiming to represent all the peoples of that time and geographical area in their story.

It's not even really a criticism, nor is it a call for their condemnation as racists. It's someone saying that they are disappointed that only white people will be represented as characters in the game.

 

[Bren McGuire]

It's like asking to have a female protagonist in The Witcher.

Heh, you haven't read all the books, have you?

 

[ultratruman]

look at the evidence presented in the tumblr answer: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75252294049/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

'Pictures of historical black figures were made in Bohemia, therefore it's wrong that you do not to have black people in your medieval Bohemian game'

Is this serious? I try not to get involved with Tumblr drama because it almost always comes down to hateful expressions of teenage angst, masquerading as moral crusades.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Variety is the spice of life. Who wouldn't want to play as this bad ass?

 

[J10]

Just once I'd like someone to admit I'm white, male, and I probably didn't give it enough consideration.

 

[FriedConsole]

I miss the days when it was right wingers who got all crazy about absolutely nothing and seeing offensive things that didn't exist. Now that it is left wing crazies seeing offensive things in nothing, it is making me think going to the other side might be a good idea. Can we bring back people who thought they heard Ozzy telling kids to commit suicide? That was more fun.

 

[aeolist]

Is this serious? I try not to get involved with Tumblr drama because it almost always comes down to hateful expressions of teenage angst, masquerading as moral crusades.

first off, depictions of black people being common in that area and time period would indicate to me that black people were not entirely unheard of

second, the post linked two separate academic works that address this subject specifically:

For a more detailed explanation of the ethnic makeup of Bohemia during/immediately preceding this era and the influx of settlers (called “proto-colonization by some historians, but it’s really kind of not), check out Central Europe in the High Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland, c. 900-c. 1300 by Nora Berend, Przemysław Urbańczyk, Przemysław Wiszewski, Chapter 5: Society and Economy (p. 250), and Chapter 7: New developments of the 13th Century (The Mongol Invasion; p. 244).

There’s also East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500 by Jean W Sedlar, Chapter 13: Ethnicity and Nationalism (p. 401) to read more about the integration of the Turkic-speaking Cumans into the overall identity of the region. Keep in mind, however, that many of these distinctions do not reflect “race” as we think of it or have it now, but denote religious and/or ethnic affiliations. Which is not the same as race. It does however, show just how diverse and well-traveled the general population was at that time, and how much immigration to the area there was: from Italy, Greece, Germany, Turkey, and Central/South Asia.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I miss the days when it was right wingers who got all crazy about absolutely nothing and seeing offensive things that didn't exist. Now that it is left wing crazies seeing offensive things in nothing, it is making me think going to the other side might be a good idea. Can we bring back people who thought they heard Ozzy telling kids to commit suicide? That was more fun.

I know reading is hard, but you should give it a shot

 

[ultratruman]

Variety is the spice of life. Who wouldn't want to play as this bad ass?

I definitely would, but playing as a scimitar-wielding Morgan Freeman wouldn't be an accurate representation of a typical Bohemian knight.

 

[Enosh]

look at the evidence presented in the tumblr answer: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75252294049/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

I've looked but I couldn't find anything about further mongol incursions into Bohemia after that first invasion, which when the Khan died retreated to deal with internal matters (this invasion began in 1241 and the Khan died in 1242), after that Russia was under mongol occupation, but the borders were around Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary etc with the furthest raids into Serbia once

Bohemia is west of all of this

Crimean Tatars were on like the other side of eastern Europe
this is the golden horde on I think the largest it's been, 13th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GoldenHorde1300.png

that's no where close Bohemia

 

[Durante]

I have to admit that I find it a little strange that they're claiming historical accuracy as the reason no people of color are in the game, while simultaneously offering a female playable character. Granted there were certainly women warriors in the 15th century, but they were at least as rare as POC.

You should read up more on the game. The female character is only for a "prequel" mini-chapter, exactly because of her historical unlikeliness as the main protagonist.

 

[J10]

I miss the days when it was right wingers who got all crazy about absolutely nothing and seeing offensive things that didn't exist. Now that it is left wing crazies seeing offensive things in nothing, it is making me think going to the other side might be a good idea. Can we bring back people who thought they heard Ozzy telling kids to commit suicide? That was more fun.

You're not paying attention.

 

[Azih]

There are a lot of things that I'm not comfortable with in what you quote aeolist

In this particular instance, the makers of this project don’t have any motivation to critically examine their choices because their all white, male-centric game received funding to be made and will, very likely, turn a profit once it’s released. They can ignore consumers who are women and/or people of color because they don’t need their money.

Setting aside the bizzare idea that women and POC can't enjoy a game about a white dude (seriously what the hell). The critic is making a whole hell of a lot of assumptions about the motivations of WarHorse and their fans. Did he or she talk to them or interview them to come to these conclusions? I doubt it and guessing at motivations is pretty unfounded. And then to use these unfounded assumptions to bash them?

Instead of being honest about it, they have successfully justified their choices using the historical accuracy fallacy... because it allows them to maintain a comfortable status quo where the only stories worth consuming are those with white male heroes.

This is really beyond the pale. Guessing at motivations and then using those guesses to pillor them is not justifiable. And that's what that entire quote was. Guessing at people's mindsets.

 

[BajiBoxer]

I dont need some blog and research, because i live in similar region and i can tell You, for a fact, that possibility of meeting any non-white people outside of major agglomerations is almost none and thats XXI century. In medieval times the chance would be hundred times lower.

Your experience in 21st century Europe is 100% irrelevant to the historical accuracy of medieval Europe. You DO need research to claim what you claim. If their historical research claims there were black people in medieval Bohemia, you certainly are in no position to dispute that as simply being from the region in 21st century after hundreds of years of social upheaval, empire building and destruction, and genocidal campaigns.

Europe had trade with Africa, Moorish invasions, and MANY interactions with black Africans for centuries. Very dark skinned Africans would not have been some crazy unusual oddity. Would have been other people of color like dark skinned gypsies too. It seems more odd that there would not have been non-white people in medieval Bohemia with all things considered.

 

[Dictator93]

I have to admit that I find it a little strange that they're claiming historical accuracy as the reason no people of color are in the game, while simultaneously offering a female playable character. Granted there were certainly women warriors in the 15th century, but they were at least as rare as POC.

I don't know why they made the choices they did. But asking doesn't mean I'm calling them names, it means I'm asking.

Pretty sure she is not gonna be a warrior or something according to the description of the gameplay around her.

 

[besada]

You should read up more on the game. The female character is only for a "prequel" mini-chapter, exactly because of her historical unlikeliness as the main protagonist.

That stuff was greyed out and hard to read, but I do note that she exists in an earlier portion and her goal is to save the main character.

 

[Nymphae]

My god, the shit people get worked up over. I understand when people are asking for more visible minorities in popular tv and movies, they're far more visible by culture at large and I think promoting diversity in those places can probably have some big impacts. But a fucking kickstarted indie game? I don't know, doesn't seem like the place for this battle.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I would almost prefer social justice/diversity advocates pour their efforts into greater endeavours that require dedication and courage.

Harassing game developers seems petty honestly

You work towards moving our culture as a whole then all the small cogs in the machine slowly change with it.

Unless you consider our entertainment industry the source of our cultural indifference to these issues as opposed to it being a result/consequence

 

[ghst]

i'm getting flashbacks to the great red orchestra 2 MKB 42 historical accuracy wars.

 

[Messofanego]

It's a lot easier to make a detailed system for only one kind of body type than it is to make the same detailed system for a lot of body types.

Also, iirc, they said they were out to tell a very specific story about a guy who... I forget the details. But yeah, it's a specific story, so it's not really crazy that they'd put a playable female character after the stuff that would help them polish off that story. You can't just go "oh yeah, now the player's a girl!" I think they want to make that story they want to tell the best it can be, and THEN they'll look for other options.

I think they were just weirded out that a playable prologue female character was a stretch goal after the other stretch goals. But then designing a quest for a playable female character would probably be more work than orchestral music. I can understand both sides of the argument.

 

[Azih]

Also I don't like the first paragraph either aeolist:

They hold onto this historical fallacy that there was a time in Europe when everyone was white (there wasn’t).

Saying everyone was white and saying non whites were rare are two very different things. I think Medieval POC has shown pretty substatntially that POC did exist in Europe of that time but the question of how common they were is still there. The fact that Medieval POC agreed with Warhorse that it is perfectly realistic for a small selection of Bohemia to not have POC kinda indicates to me that they were rare.

That there was a time when women operated solely within a strict framework; that they never expressed independent thoughts or acted counter to the “rules” of the time.

And where in the blue hell did this come from? The Jim Carrey what you talking about, who you talking to gif applies here.

 

[captainpat]

Harassing game developers seems petty honestly

NO ONE has harassed the developer, the person harassed is MedievalPOC.

 

[Moral Panic]

I think the use of Social Justice Warrior as an insult is incredibly funny. Look at that person, they care about sexism and racism and homophobia!

 

[faceless007]

I said undertone.

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of the arguments I read here do seem to me like are intended to imply that Warhorse made a racist choice.

I find that in general, when someone uses words like "seem to" and "imply" when characterizing an opponent's arguments, they're just projecting things that aren't there in order to construct a straw man rather than address the argument as it was actually presented.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I would almost prefer social justice/diversity advocates pour their efforts into greater endeavours that require dedication and courage.

Harassing game developers seems petty honestly

Someone sent ONE EMAIL.

Someone else wrote ONE TUMBLR POST.

The only harassment has been towards the person who wrote the post from a bunch of people on Reddit who are ultra-sensitive to anything which even looks like social-justice activism. The internet exists as a place for open discourse and personal editorialising about issues in which you're interested, someone did that and was subjected to death threats for their trouble.

 

[KKRT00]

Your experience in 21st century Europe is 100% irrelevant to the historical accuracy of medieval Europe. You DO need research to claim what you claim. If their historical research claims there were black people in medieval Bohemia, you certainly are in no position to dispute that as simply being from the region in 21st century after hundreds of years of social upheaval, empire building and destruction, and genocidal campaigns.

Europe had trade with Africa, Moorish invasions, and MANY interactions with black Africans for centuries. Very dark skinned Africans would not have been some crazy unusual oddity. Would have been other people of color like dark skinned gypsies too. It seems more odd that there would not have been non-white people in medieval Bohemia with all things considered.

You know, there are probably 2-3 Eskimo in Poland right now, so next time when a game with Poland region will be released i will demand an Eskimo character, because they live here!

Why people from USA are so hard at trying to put color of people into Central/Eastern Europe, even if a chance of meeting such a person is around 0.0001%.

 

[Durante]

I find that in general, when someone uses words like "seem to" and "imply" when characterizing an opponent's arguments, they're just projecting things that aren't there in order to construct a straw man rather than address the argument as it was actually presented.

Or they are simply trained to be extremely careful expressing thoughts about anything which is not scientifically proven fact.

Can you honestly read something like this:

Instead of being honest about it, they have successfully justified their choices using the historical accuracy fallacy... because it allows them to maintain a comfortable status quo where the only stories worth consuming are those with white male heroes.

And tell me that I'm projecting when I say that statements such as these are intended to imply racism on part of the developers?

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Wait, the devs are touting having the most advanced character creation tool ever and you can't make women or non-white characters with it?!?! WTF?

This is going for historical accuracy and not some fantasy or cinematic experience. You can have an advanced character creation tool without skin color changes and gender changes for the player. They have already demonstrated that there is creation tools for women, but as a player you are a male protagonist and thus will only be able to be a man. The skin color comes into play because of rarity. There were not many white people in the lower parts of Africa around the 15th century, so a protagonist in that area should be darker in skin.

]Video games themselves will never be truly realistic[/B], but striving for such can happen, and that means the less liberties taken the better. I see what you are getting at, but there are gaps within that, from a historically "strong" person to a person of rarity within an area at a certain time.

Wait, does the game contain something more unrealistic than a person of color?

Anyway, it's basically a representation of the time period, not a super realistic thing. They are going for realism, and they choose to not contain a person of color. They could go for an incredibly rare chance to see a black person, but they didn't, and they didn't have to.

I'm not saying I'd be up in arms if they DID include one or two, I'm saying I can see why they didn't at all because it was very uncommon. I may not be relaying my message correctly. Damn the mornings with no coffee and loads of work.

There will come a time where video games can be realistic.

 

[ultratruman]

first off, depictions of black people being common in that area and time period would indicate to me that black people were not entirely unheard of

I don't think anyone would argue Czech artists wouldn't even know black people existed. The point is it's a worse than flimsy way of assessing how common black people were in Bohemia at this time.

second, the post linked two separate academic works that address this subject specifically:

Yes, I know. The person is trying to say that people ethnically related to the Crimean Tatars and the blonde haired Cumans should be seen as a) 'of colour' and b) common in Bohemia because they were involved in 12th century wars with central European countries. Nobody is denying that ethnic minorities did not exist in this era, but positing the idea that the developers are being historically disingenuous by not including black people in their game about a this small Bohemian village is ludicrous.

For the record, I am Czech and I've studied Czech history at Charles University, and similarly we are discussing a Czech outfit making a historically Czech game. I understand and share the desire to have games be more inclusive with minorities, but there is also room for games striving for a realistic reflection of historical times.

 

[Messofanego]

Death threats are silly, but this is is one instance in which the whole "issue" truly is entirely fabricated by "social justice warriors".

Taking a random 9km² rural bohemian area in the middle ages and getting upset if there are no black people there is fucking stupid. That's not racism, that's statistics.

Even when it is?

The people getting upset are these Reddit people, not the person who asked if the devs were planning to have people of colour in the game.

 

[ghst]

Someone sent ONE EMAIL.

Someone else wrote ONE TUMBLR POST.

The only harassment has been towards the person who wrote the post from a bunch of people on Reddit who are ultra-sensitive to anything which even looks like social-justice activism. The internet exists as a place for open discourse and personal editorialising about issues in which you're interested, someone did that and was subjected to death threats for their trouble.

the internet makes real people out of strawmen. the irony is that it's the moderates which usually give these fringe elements the spotlight by looking for the most aggressive and easily picked apart opposition to their own position. the result is that these fringe elements dominate the conversation making it difficult to discuss something as inoffensive as the historical representation of black people in medieval europe without battle lines being drawn.

 

[Eidan]

If I can't make my character black, I'm not interested.

 

[ultratruman]

If I can't make my character black, I'm not interested.

you must not play many games!

 

[OldAsUrSock]

If I can't make my character black, I'm not interested.

Obligatory

 

[BajiBoxer]

I think the problem seems to be a bunch of non-historian game devs claiming historical accuracy. This sounds like a typical male hero fantasy game where they are trying to make only certain parts historically accurate for the sake of immersion. It's fine, and I like those kind of games, but it's obviously not going to hold up to scrutiny of someone who really specializes in historical matters.

I think the original person writing to the devs and giving some mild criticism makes some very good points, and it would be nice to see more devs tell the stories in this time period from a non-white perspective in Western games (has anyone done this yet?). I think this game though sounds more like it's about combat and getting laid (what I meant above about male fantasy).

Both the devs and the original question asker were polite and professional, so I think it's a non-controversy despite some severe overreactions from us outside observers particularly against the criticism. Lots of false equivalency and people who still have HUGE problems with race.

 

[Azih]

You know, there are probably 2-3 Eskimo in Poland right now,

Uh, tangential (but still hilariously on topic) you probably mean Inuit there. Eskimo is an insulting term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo

 

[Eidan]

you must not play many games!

I've never touched the Fable series because the idea of a game with character creation not allowing you to be anything but white aggravated me.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

you must not play many games!

Most games where you create a character offer that option (or at least a brown version of a white guy)

still

 

[KKRT00]

and it would be nice to see more devs tell the stories in this time period from a non-white perspective in Western games (has anyone done this yet?). I think this game though sounds more like it's about combat and getting laid (what I meant above about male fantasy).

Seriously, what the fuck?

 

[CheDominik]

Uh, tangential (but still hilariously on topic) you probably mean Inuit there. Eskimo is an insulting term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo

Outside of mentioning that the ICC wants the term changed to Inuit which wouldn't be accurate according to this wikipedia version there is no mentioning of it being pejorative.

So I guess it depends on your language.

 

[faceless007]

Or they are simply trained to be extremely careful expressing thoughts about anything which is not scientifically proven fact.

I don't know how you can say this when the very argument you make in the next paragraph is just an argument from incredulity that does not contain any scientifically proven facts.

Can you honestly read something like this:
And tell me that I'm projecting when I say that statements such as these are intended to imply racism on part of the developers?

Accusing someone of perpetuating the current racial status quo is not the same as accusing them of being racist. I wish more people understood this distinction.

 

[ChronoDragoon]

here's a pretty good summation of why this is a problem:

The post you quote is actually a perfect example of what not to take seriously on the side of social justice. The post says that if you do not include all minorities and women in your game in certain ways that the poster dictates, then you are a selfish racist asshole hellbent on keeping the white man on top, and using history merely as an excuse for your plantation-owner mentality. This is ridiculous, and is an example of the type of grandstanding bully that can be ignored. Social activism is a wonderful thing unless it turns toxic and begins misfiring at benign targets because it can't be bothered with racist things like "nuance" or "psychology".

 

[ichtyander]

I think the problem seems to be a bunch of non-historian game devs claiming historical accuracy. This sounds like a typical male hero fantasy game where they are trying to make only certain parts historically accurate for the sake of immersion. It's fine, and I like those kind of games, but it's obviously not going to hold up to scrutiny of someone who really specializes in historical matters.

I think the original person writing to the devs and giving some mild criticism makes some very good points, and it would be nice to see more devs tell the stories in this time period from a non-white perspective in Western games (has anyone done this yet?). I think this game though sounds more like it's about combat and getting laid (what I meant above about male fantasy).

Both the devs and the original question asker were polite and professional, so I think it's a non-controversy despite some severe overreactions from us outside observers particularly against the criticism. Lots of false equivalency and people who still have HUGE problems with race.

There really are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions in this post.

 

[BajiBoxer]

You know, there are probably 2-3 Eskimo in Poland right now, so next time when a game with Poland region will be released i will demand an Eskimo character, because they live here!

Why people from USA are so hard at trying to put color of people into Central/Eastern Europe, even if a chance of meeting such a person is around 0.0001%.

We're talking armies of Africans invading a continent and very large groups of non-white people who are known to have been there through historical record and archeology.They've been written about, painted, had skeletons found, built buildings, and ruled large swathes of land in Europe. We're not talking about a couple Eskimo immigrants in Poland. You are simply being willfully ignorant of your own region of the planet because you don't don't see black people at this moment.

 

[pants]

My god, the shit people get worked up over. I understand when people are asking for more visible minorities in popular tv and movies, they're far more visible by culture at large and I think promoting diversity in those places can probably have some big impacts. But a fucking kickstarted indie game? I don't know, doesn't seem like the place for this battle.

This is pretty much how I feel.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Keeping it classy, reddit. That place can be such a cesspool.