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[Lonewolf_92]

The comparisons to The Witcher and other character driven games is a bit disingenuous. Those games are based around a specific character. This games character is more like an archetype, note the description of the character:

The hero

In the midst of this plunder and chaos, a son of a blacksmith will emerge as a hero. His home destroyed and his family murdered by the invading army, he must redeem his failure to protect those he loved and set things right again. Avenging the dead, safeguarding the kingdom’s rightful ruler, and restoring order will prove no small feat for our adventurer. But beware - this is not a fantasy fairytale, and you are not the chosen one! This will be a tough, dirty job that only a champion with enough wits and strength will survive.

They go one to point out that you have freedom of choice in how you handle the situations in the game. It's clear that this is more like classic RPGs like the Arcanum or Fallout than The Witcher. Since you're playing a random "son of a blacksmith" I see no reason the character couldn't be a POC, sure he'd be an extreme rarity due to his race and I wouldn't expect to see a POC in a random group of people, but it could be added for those interested without "hurting" the historical elements one bit.

 

[rottame]

Also, for any game developers or 3d modelers out there

Ehen working on a game, do you just palette swap people to make them, let's say in this case, 'black', or do you have to create a new 3d model of the head to make the character look 'black' (skull shapes and facial features of Africans are different then European Caucasians)

Im just wondering if this could be a reason why this specific game doesnt have POC NPCs because it would add another few models to do them right. Thats why I wanna know of big name companies do this, or just palette swap.

If the level of detail is high enough (i.e. you can see the face quite clearly) it makes sense to have a different head model. I don't know how they will handle secondary NPCs in this game: will each of them be individually modeled (unlikely), will they have some randomizing features system or just some models recurring (like in Assassin's Creed)? Unless they're modeling each single character, implementing one character with different facial features may cause problems. Also, if they would do it in a somewhat believable way and, let's say, have the non-white population be 1-2% of the total population (and it still may be a stretch, considering the time and place) it would be a little bit strange; you would notice that character every time it appears.

 

[kyser73]

Why is the presence of POC & other non-Caucasians in Europe generally a source of surprise to anyone? The Roman & Mongol Empires, various trading routes across Central Asia & up the West coast of Africa into the Med & North Western Europe, not to mention the Moors in Spain...craziness.

Regarding the game - presumably any kind of serious injury carries a high risk of death, there's a good chance of catching some hideous disease...

 

[akira28]

edit: redirected post

 

[rottame]

The comparisons to The Witcher and other character driven games is a bit disingenuous. Those games are based around a specific character. This games character is more like an archetype, note the description of the character:



They go one to point out that you have freedom of choice in how you handle the situations in the game. It's clear that this is more like classic RPGs like the Arcanum or Fallout than The Witcher. Since you're playing a random "son of a blacksmith" I see no reason the character couldn't be a POC, sure he'd be an extreme rarity due to his race and I wouldn't expect to see a POC in a random group of people, but it could be added for those interested without "hurting" the historical elements one bit.

And no character in the game would blink an eye and would treat a member of a tiny ethnic minority exactly as they would treat a white person. So you have a medieval setting, full of the intrigue, the harsh life and the rigid social classes and norms of the period, but everyone would act toward the protagonist like the most cosmopolitan big city person and that wouldn't hurt the historical element one bit?

 

[rottame]

Why is the presence of POC & other non-Caucasians in Europe generally a source of surprise to anyone? The Roman & Mongol Empires, various trading routes across Central Asia & up the West coast of Africa into the Med & North Western Europe, not to mention the Moors in Spain...craziness.

Regarding the game - presumably any kind of serious injury carries a high risk of death, there's a good chance of catching some hideous disease...

As far as I know, the difference between regions was huge. So, yes, in Venice or any other city that lived out of commerce, there was probably a big ethnic variety (that doesn't mean, however, that everyone was treated the same or could have any role in society). In the country side of central Europe or, generally speaking, outside of big cities? Not so much, I would guess.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

And no character in the game would blink an eye and would treat a member of a tiny ethnic minority exactly as they would treat a white person. So you have a medieval setting, full of the intrigue, the harsh life and the rigid social classes and norms of the period, but everyone would act like the most cosmopolitan big city person and that wouldn't hurt the historical element one bit?

Yeah it could be different and the developers would have to accommodate for the sex/ethnicity of the player character if they're going for historical accuracy. If the developers eschew that level of customization, it's no longer about historical accuracy and it's merely them not wanting to put in that extra effort, be it altered dialogue or character interactions.

If there's proof that non-white people/women couldn't be blacksmiths, or their daughters couldn't become knights in that 9 sq. km of land in real life during that time period, then that's another issue.

 

[Azih]

Yeah it could be different and the developers would have to accommodate for the sex/ethnicity of the player character if they're going for historical accuracy. If the developers eschew that level of customization, it's no longer about historical accuracy and it's merely them not wanting to put in that extra effort, be it altered dialogue or character interactions.

Are you really suggesting that it's just a matter of a lack of effort?

This is really nuts. Do you have any idea of the incredible expansion of scope that you're talking about here?

 

[Pound_lb003]

I saw a black guy in a small town in Hungary (only once) and the town stopped and stared at him.

If it was different during the medieval period I'd be shocked.

Having said that, it'd be cool to be able to make a black character in the character creator.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

And no character in the game would blink an eye and would treat a member of a tiny ethnic minority exactly as they would treat a white person. So you have a medieval setting, full of the intrigue, the harsh life and the rigid social classes and norms of the period, but everyone would act like the most cosmopolitan big city person and that wouldn't hurt the historical element one bit?

Considering the character is the son of a blacksmith, and therefore a peasant, his ethnicity is really a rather small matter compared to his social status.

 

[Azih]

Considering the character is the son of a blacksmith, and therefore a peasant, his ethnicity is really a rather small matter compared to his social status.

This is absurd too. It's akin to saying that race doesn't really matter which is complete nonsense in our societies let alone MEDIEVAL EUROPE .

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Are you really suggesting that it's just a matter of a lack of effort?

This is really nuts. Do you have any idea of the incredible expansion of scope that you're talking about here?

Saying there's a "lack of effort" doesn't mean the developers haven't put a lot of effort into the game.

However, it is indisputable that including more customization options would require more effort on the developers' part, correct? I also didn't say "lack of effort," I said "extra effort."

 

[rottame]

Yeah it could be different and the developers would have to accommodate for the sex/ethnicity of the player character if they're going for historical accuracy. If the developers eschew that level of customization, it's no longer about historical accuracy and it's merely them not wanting to put in that extra effort, be it altered dialogue or character interactions.

If there's proof that non-white people/women couldn't be blacksmiths, or their daughters couldn't become knights in that 9 sq. km of land in real life during that time period, then that's another issue.

So they should also allow the player to create a character missing a leg because of cancer, or play as an old woman, or an Italian (I'm sure there must have been one or two Italians living there at that time)...
The game is clearly about the son of a local blacksmith and his adventures in that time/period. It's not a simulation of every single possible life experience. You can't create any character you want. You can customize the main character.
Moreover, having a minority or female protagonist would realistically mean changing pretty much all the character interactions and dialogues, if they're aiming at realism.

 

[Azih]

Saying there's a "lack of effort" doesn't mean the developers haven't put a lot of effort into the game.

However, it is indisputable that including more customization options would require more effort on the developers' part, correct? I also didn't say "lack of effort," I said "extra effort."

There is an implication here is that this is something that could reasonably be done. I don't know if you think it is or not but I think it's important to point out that the amount of extra work that you are talking about is HUGE.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Game of Thrones is fantasy, not history lol.

But yes, people of color existed and went to other countries in the past!!!!!!!

Wow!!!!!

This.

Call me crazy, but I actually enjoy seeing diversity in my media. It represents the world today, and you can get away with less "historical accuracy" to add PoC in your fantasy media.

It's really weird to me when people argue against this. It's just really not a big deal.

 

[whyman]

No I dont think there should be "people of colour" (Who says this? And why is white not a colour?) in the game if its out of context. Im pretty sure you would not find many black people in the area of Europe where the game takes place at that time. As always there are exceptions to the rule but would 1 or 2 African guys or girls forced into the game for the sake of diversity really be better than to have none at all. I understand many will get upset about comments like this but that is what i think.

 

[rottame]

Considering the character is the son of a blacksmith, and therefore a peasant, his ethnicity is really a rather small matter compared to his social status.

A blacksmith was a professional - and fundamentally useful - figure. I don't think he would be at the bottom of the social ladder. And I don't know why do you assume that the ethnicity (or religion as well) played no role between people of the same social class.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

So they should also allow the player also to create a character missing a leg because of cancer, or play as an old woman, or an Italian (I'm sure there must have been one or two Italians living there at that time)...
The game is clearly about the son of a local blacksmith and his adventures in that time/period. It's not a simulation of every single possible life experience. You can't create any character you want. You can customize the main character.
Moreover, having a minority or female protagonist would realistically mean changing pretty much all the character interactions and dialogues, if they're aiming at realism.

Neither of us can say what they should or shouldn't do. They don't have to have customization at all. They can make the game however they want.

If they say their decision was based on historical accuracy, but a person of color or a woman could conceivably be in the player character's position, then their excluding that level of customization isn't actually because of historical accuracy. They might have thought they were being historically accurate, yet they aren't accounting for some details, despite placing such importance on accuracy.

The notion that "if you randomly picked a person in that time period/location, they'd almost certainly be white" disregards that the player is given the ability to create a character of their own design, one that never existed. If the developers are specifically trying to design a game that would portray the average experience of a knight during that period, then what they're doing doesn't contradict their goal. If all they're concerned with is historical accuracy, then excluding race/sex customization goes against their intentions.

If a person of color or woman who became a blacksmith or a knight would've been treated wildly different from a white man in those positions, the developers would have to accommodate for those differences, yes. It'd be a lot more work. No ones disputing that.
Even if the existence of a minority in such a place was rare, the fact that the player has the option to customize their character means they could make their character albino which might be even more rare than a person of color. This character is fictional, even if they're based off of history, so the only difference between including the option or not is an arbitrary, subjective option of what constitutes "too historically inaccurate."

There is an implication here is that this is something that could reasonably be done. I don't know if you think it is or not but I think it's important to point out that the amount of extra work that you are talking about is HUGE.

No, that's just how you've interpreted it.

A blacksmith was a professional - and fundamentally useful - figure. I don't think he would be at the bottom of the social ladder. And I don't know why do you assume that the ethnicity (or religion as well) played no role between people of the same social class.

Do we know that a person of color couldn't become a blacksmith?

 

[richiek]

I just checked out the subreddit TumblrInAction. Holy shit, what a cesspool.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

This is absurd too. It's akin to saying that race doesn't really matter which is complete nonsense in our societies let alone MEDIEVAL EUROPE .

"The mercenaries of Duke BigBeard are pillaging the village and killing all the men! Oh, wow <hero name>, your skin is hella dark, I never noticed that before." Since the game is set in a 9 sq. km area (about 5.5 miles) and the characters family lived there (son of a local blacksmith) and had his own family there until they were killed, it wouldn't be surprising if everyone would know of you already.

 

[remnant]

Unsurprisingly, the anti-SJW movement is basically just a cover for racist and homophobic attitudes.

You see what you want to see.

 

[mr2xxx]

Why so much hate? The guy was respectful when contacting the creators and talking about the game. I'd understand the hate if he addressed it the way the Gawker guy did when talking about Jerry Seinfeld.

 

[Azih]

No, that's just how you've interpreted it.

Alright if we agree that it is not a reasonable request in any way for Warhorse to refactor all of their voice acting, dialogue, script, plot, story etc. to allow for a black PC in a period piece set in medieval Bohemia (and that is what this is, a period piece) then we are in agreement and all of this is completely moot.

Edit: Lonewolf, I honestly think that plonking in a black character model for the PC and having nothing else in the game acknowledge the race would be an incredibly bad and jarring idea. This isn't Saint's Row. Not every game has to be.

 

[remnant]

Why so much hate? The guy was respectful when contacting the creators and talking about the game. I'd understand the hate if he addressed it the way the Gawker guy did when talking about Jerry Seinfeld.

Seems to me like the guy does assume the creators are racist or whatever

 

[Spring-Loaded]

"The mercenaries of Duke BigBeard are pillaging the village and killing all the men! Oh, wow <hero name>, your skin is hella dark, I never noticed that before." Since the game is set in a 9 sq. km area (about 5.5 miles) and the characters family lived there (son of a local blacksmith) and had his own family there until they were killed, it wouldn't be surprising if everyone would know of you already.

That's another reason that suggests the amount of interactions that would be fundamentally affected by the player's race wouldn't have to be huge, though this would depend on actual historical documentation of race relations in that area at the time.

Alright if we agree that it is not a reasonable request in any way for Warhorse to refactor all of their voice acting, dialogue, script, plot, story etc. to allow for a black PC then we are in agreement and all of this is completely moot.

It would take a lot of work. I and a lot of other people aren't requesting anything. The post that started this entire discussion wasn't requesting anything either.

This discussion (or at least my post) was not about what Warhorse should/shouldn't do before the game's released. Since it's already been in development and they have a projected release date, it would not be reasonable to either ask or demand that they make all these changes.

However, this matter can be discussed so that future projects by Warhorse or other devs who want to achieve historical accuracy while including character customization will have a better understanding of what that goal really means. That is not moot. It's problematic that people are misunderstanding the purpose of such a discussion since they will assume the same as you and, in turn, say the discussion is pointless, even though there's something to be gained from all this.

Seems to me like the guy does assume the creators are racist or whatever

What he assumes might influence what he says, but critiques of what he says shouldn't focus on what one thinks he might be assuming (if those critiques are to be fair)

 

[Azih]

I really don't understand your conflation of character customization with historical accuracy at all. Those are two completely different things.

Edit: And seriously, Muslims were considered devil worshipers, Eastern Europe of that time was routinely in conflict with the Islamic empires of the time and any black character would be painted in that light. Thinking that that wouldn't make any sort of a difference is bunk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Christian_views_on_Muhammad

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I really don't understand your conflation of character customization with historical accuracy at all. Those are two completely different things.

If it's in the game and one of the developers' core goals is to achieve historical accuracy, then your character's appearance is a part of that.

If a person of color/woman could in real life have been in the player character's position of this game, then it would be historically accurate to allow that to be a reality in the game. It would not go against historical accuracy.

Edit: And seriously, Muslims were considered devil worshipers, Eastern Europe of that time was routinely in conflict with the Islamic empires of the time and any black character would be painted in that light. Thinking that that wouldn't make any sort of a difference is bunk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Christian_views_on_Muhammad

Thinking it would be impossible for a person of color to live in such an area+time period, and in turn make a living there is bunk &#8212; unless it's a fact that that never/couldn't happen, of course. We're not talking about "well, it's unlikely that they could have." We're talking about "historically accurate" or "historically inaccurate." It either was possible or was impossible.

If the developers' research proved this wouldn't be feasible at the time, then their eschewing race/sex customization is in line with their historical accuracy line.

 

[ultron87]

It should probably be noted that the original query that started all this was just about non-white descent NPCs and not about playable characters. Adding some NPCs would certainly take significantly less effort than the kind of plot variance that could potentially be added by maintaining historical accuracy with a non-white main character.

The descriptions of the game seem to suggest you'll be going to large cities and participating in large scale battles, so it isn't like the whole game takes place in one village with no outsiders where everyone knows each other.

 

[Azih]

If it's in the game and one of the developers' core goals is to achieve historical accuracy, then your character's appearance is a part of that.

If a person of color/woman could in real life have been in the player character's position of this game, then it would be historically accurate to allow that to be a reality in the game. It would not go against historical accuracy.

But the absence of that feature in no way damages the historical accuracy of the game. It is completely irrelevant to it.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

But the absence of that feature in no way damages the historical accuracy of the game. It is completely irrelevant to it.

Then the developer's justification for not including it shouldn't have anything to do with historical accuracy. Did they cite historical accuracy as justification?

 

[Durante]

If they say their decision was based on historical accuracy, but a person of color or a woman could conceivably be in the player character's position, then their excluding that level of customization isn't actually because of historical accuracy. They might have thought they were being historically accurate, yet they aren't accounting for some details, despite placing such importance on accuracy.

The notion that "if you randomly picked a person in that time period/location, they'd almost certainly be white" disregards that the player is given the ability to create a character of their own design, one that never existed. If the developers are specifically trying to design a game that would portray the average experience of a knight during that period, then what they're doing doesn't contradict their goal. If all they're concerned with is historical accuracy, then excluding race/sex customization goes against their intentions.

I strongly disagree with this entire line of argument. It's an all or nothing fallacy. Just because the game does not allow you to reenact the 0.0001% chance of a black or female blacksmith turned knight in 13th century Bohemia doesn't mean that the game's pursuit of historical accuracy isn't meaningful.

 

[1cmanny1]

I'm saddened by this debacle, because it's is quite common for extreme right-wing political groups in central and eastern Europe to hijack this fascinating period of history to support their poisonous ideas of racial purity. We should be able to enjoy this small historical game Warhorse Studios are making without being made to feel guilty by the possible political connotations.

I agree. This is just a game still in kick starter phase, probably made by all white Europeans. Although I doubt anyone would feel guilty.

This really is a non issue. They have not included colour people because they think there weren't a lot around back then, if you think they are wrong prove it. I would rather they change it due to fact, rather than just to be PC.

 

[Azih]

Then the developer's justification for not including it shouldn't have anything to do with historical accuracy. Did they cite historical accuracy as justification?

Yes and MedeivalPOC agrees with them that it's perfectly reasonable in that light. So there's that.

Authorial intent also comes into play as to whether Warhorse wants the PC to start of as a pretty generic character according to the times or not. That's authorial intent. Which is important.

 

[lefantome]

Their answer imho doesn't demonstrate that there were enough people of color to be represented in the game.

I haven't read the books suggested, they should have quoted them.

The fact that there were depictions of black people doesn't mean that they were present with good numbers, people knew that there were black people but how many people did they see them? C'mon their avatar is a blonde girl with a black skin.

There are lots of drawings of mythical creatures across the world but nobody has never seen them.

Therefore, unless they give us more information and evidences, I'm with Warhorse studios.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I strongly disagree with this entire line of argument. It's an all or nothing fallacy. Just because the game does not allow you to reenact the 0.0001% chance of a black or female blacksmith turned knight in 13th century Bohemia doesn't mean that the game's pursuit of historical accuracy isn't meaningful.

Then the only reasons for the exclusion of that level of customization are ones that don't have to do with historical accuracy. People using "historical accuracy" as a justification for not having that customization are making a fallacious argument. It's entirely up to what the developers are willing, able and wanting to do from a technical standpoint, not one based on accuracy.

Yes and MedeivalPOC agrees with them that it's perfectly reasonable in that light. So there's that.

Authorial intent also comes into play as to whether Warhorse wants the PC to start of as a pretty generic character according to the times or not. That's authorial intent. Which is important.

MedievalPOC didn't just agree, and that was that. They said that if historical accuracy could be used on either side of the argument (that's what they agreed with), then the decision to not include race/sex were "conscious choices made by the game developers, not some kind of force beyond their control" (i.e. historical accuracy).

 

[Messofanego]

Did I hear the developers will be having Romani/gypsies in the game? I knew when I was living in Prague, people had a negative view of them even now. They used to be sterilised during WWII If Tatars are of Turkish origin, it's not surprising that there's quite a sizable Turkish and Arab population that I found there. So many doner kebab shops!

 

[Lonewolf_92]

I really don't understand your conflation of character customization with historical accuracy at all. Those are two completely different things.

Edit: And seriously, Muslims were considered devil worshipers, Eastern Europe of that time was routinely in conflict with the Islamic empires of the time and any black character would be painted in that light. Thinking that that wouldn't make any sort of a difference is bunk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Christian_views_on_Muhammad

I guess there were only Muslim POC then? Come on.

If we're going all out on the realism, they obviously shouldn't be speaking English (as they clearly do in the trailer) but Bohemian (Czech), I would think that would be far more "jarring" than the option of playing a dark skinned toon in a single player first person game, but that's just me.

Edit: And I find it funny that people arguing against having female characters haven't noticed that stretch goal has already been made so it's in. Fucking arguing to argue it seems like.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

but can you seduce local men?

Haha, I wondered the same thing. Probably not, due to time and resource constraints, but I do hope Warhorse wouldn't say that there were no homosexuals in Sochi Iran Bohemia...

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I would be pretty mad if they shoehorned in a white guy in a primarily POC setting. I can't help but think they would shove that white guy in solely to not piss off white folk who get fearful around non-whites.

Wait, isn't this what happened in Resident Evil 5?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Wait, isn't this what happened in Resident Evil 5?

The opposite happens so often in fiction, it's become common to the point that individual instances of it are rarely thread worthy.

 

[rottame]

Edit: And I find it funny that people arguing against having female characters haven't noticed that stretch goal has already been made so it's in. Fucking arguing to argue it seems like.

The female character will appear in a separate quest. She won't be a warrior like the main character; she will be more stealth oriented. You won't be able to play the entire game with a female character.
Do people in this thread even care about this game?

 

[Messofanego]

Interesting read, but I just googled randomly so this might not be reputable:
The History of the Roma Minority in the Czech Republic

First the Roma were accepted... (don't know if "black gypsy" is a relation to skin colour cause Roma are of Indian origin or blacksmith)

The exact year of the Roma's arrival on the territory of the present-day Czech Republic is difficult to determine, as the chronicles of the time don't mention their arrival in any clear or concrete way. In the chronicle of "Dalimil," in the chapter "About the Pagans" the author makes reference to Tatar scouts who were moving through the Czech Lands after 1242, and with whom he could be confusing the Roma, though Roma scholars haven't verified this document.

Another reference to the Roma in the Czech Lands comes from the end of the 14th century, when the Executioner's Book of the Lord of Rozmberk contains the testimony of a condemned man, who names as his accomplice a "black gypsy." This could be fact, as the Roma arrived in Central Europe in the 15th century. Many historians also refer to this century as the "Golden Age of the Roma in Europe," when they were being received by aristocrats and being given letters of protection and other privileges. Solid proof of the Roma's residence on Czech territory is actually one of these letters of protection, which was issued on April 17th, 1423 at Spissky Castle by the Holy Roman Emperor and Czech King, Zikmund. The text of this letter has been preserved and reads as follows:

"We, Zikmund, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, ..., Our loyal Ladislav, Duke of his Gypsy people, humbly beseeches us for affirmation of our special leniency. Receive then his civil appeal and don't refuse this letter. In the case that the aforementioned Ladislav and his people appear in whichever place in Our Empire, in any town or village, We recommend that you show to him the loyalty which you would show to Us. Protect them, so that Duke Ladislav and his people may live without prejudice within your walls. If some one among them is found drunk, if they should cause a quarrel of any kind, We desire and decree that only Ladislav himself, Duke, has the right to judge this person, punish, give pardon and absolution, or cast him out from your circle ..."

The Roma brought this letter with them when they arrived in France, and because it was issued in the Czech Lands (La Boheme) and by the Czech King (roi de Boheme), the French people named the newcomers after the land from whence they came, les Bohemiens.

...but then it got ugly:

The first to observe that the Roma were not servants of God was the Church. This was also began their persecution, which was soon joined by the secular powers, which saw the Roma as Turkish spies. In 1427, the Archbishop of Paris excommunicated the Roma from the Church and the attitude of the population changed radically. And so began four centuries of cruel discrimination. Rulers of individual countries began to issue decrees by which the Roma were ordered out of their territory. With the persecution, the Roma were exposed to torture, bodily mutilation, and then execution. The greatest persecution in the Czech Lands came after 1697, when the Roma were placed by Imperial decree outside the law. Anyone could shoot, hang or drown them, and killing Roma wasn't considered a crime.

The persecution of the Roma at the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance belongs among the darkest pages of European history. Europe never really accepted them, due to their dissimilarity, and also in part to the fact that they often found provisions on their travels by stealing, which was then used as justification for their persecution. In the first few centuries, the ill will they generated among the locals was offset by their migration to a new region, where they weren't yet known. The Roma's life was never easy, they were always among the poorest population groups, and supposedly Christian Europe never behaved towards them in a very Christian manner.

Romani blacksmiths:

In Central and Southeastern Europe, it was a little different situation than in the West. The Turkish advance, which expanded the borders of the Ottoman Empire in the 16th and 17th centuries to the area of southern Slovakia, transformed the situation between the other inhabitants and the Roma, when both warring sides expoited the services of the local residents. In the case of the Roma, except for fortification and building work, mainly the services of the Romani blacksmiths were put to use.

From the second half of the 16th century, there were instances of certain towns allowing the settlement of Romani blacksmiths with their families. In Hungary, the families of talented musicians were settled by music-loving feudal lords on their lands. The foundations for a permanently settled way of life among the Roma population were created in this way in the Hungarian lands. The persecution of the Roma was ended by decree in Austria by the middle of the 18th century by Maria Theresa.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Do people in this thread even care about this game?

Yes. Though the thread is about more than just the game, even though that doesn't excuse people not paying attention to details in the links.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The opposite happens so often in fiction, it's become common to the point that individual instances of it are rarely thread worthy.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhiteMaleLead

Do people in this thread even care about this game?

That's a little unfair, it's like me asking if you really care about black people.

Interesting read, but I just googled randomly so this might not be reputable:
The History of the Roma Minority in the Czech Republic

First the Roma were accepted... (don't know if "black gypsy" is a relation to skin colour cause Roma are of Indian origin or blacksmith)

...but then it got ugly:

Romani blacksmiths:

It's always amazing to me how widely loathed the Roma are, even today. There was a thread here years ago where it felt like every single Euro-GAF poster turned up to say "I love people of all races, colours and creeds but srsly fuck Gypsies".

 

[Minister of the Dog]

MedievalPOC didn't just agree, and that was that. They said that if historical accuracy could be used on either side of the argument (that's what they agreed with), then the decision to not include race/sex were "conscious choices made by the game developers, not some kind of force beyond their control" (i.e. historical accuracy).

And they tried to support their argument with the following pieces of art of that time in Bohemia:

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75252294049/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

1. Queen of Sheba (~ 1000 BCE, Ethiopia).
2. Martyrdom of St. Maurice (III century, Egypt)
3. Saint Jerome (III-IV century, Dalmatia [current Croatia, Albania, and others])
- also note, many other paintings portray him as white-
4. Saint Maurice. See #2.
5. John of Oppava, St. Matthew&#8217;s Mission in Ethiopia evangelistary, 1368

How exactly have they proven their point? If you state something, it's on you to prove you're right, not on others to prove you're wrong.

 

[RubenCordeiro]

Am I the only one that feels off about contributing with 3 pounds to the kickstarter and being classified as PEASANT in the process? xD

 

[Rubius]

I have no problem with a white population. If the game is set for historic setting it's okay. If they did an egyptian game or a Prebritish Australian game the level of white would be to the minimum too.
I dont really want people to add colors or sex they dont feel is okay. Women in the chevalry were extremely rare. You cant really rewrite history to put a fanfic of a black women knight in the middle of europe just because you will get "attacked" if you do not.

 

[Azih]

I guess there were only Muslim POC then? Come on.

We're talking about how superstitious, uneducated peasants living in an age where there was a lot of suspicion of outsiders would react to a very obviously visibly different pc. Your supposition that it would not be very different from just another white dude is far more unbelievable than anything I have said.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

The opposite happens so often in fiction, it's become common to the point that individual instances of it are rarely thread worthy.

Tarzan, The Phantom, I could go on...

Completely an aside, but since somebody mentioned religion, the Bohemian King of the time this game is set in protected Jan Hus and later was a supporter of "Antipope" Alexander V in the Papal Schism.

 

[Rubius]

And they tried to support their argument with the following pieces of art of that time in Bohemia:

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75252294049/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

1. Queen of Sheba (~ 1000 BCE, Ethiopia).
2. Martyrdom of St. Maurice (III century, Egypt)
3. Saint Jerome (III-IV century, Dalmatia [current Croatia, Albania, and others])
- also note, many other paintings portray him as white-
4. Saint Maurice. See #2.
5. John of Oppava, St. Matthew’s Mission in Ethiopia evangelistary, 1368

How exactly have they proven their point? If you state something, it's on you to prove you're right, not on others to prove you're wrong.

Jesus is painted as a white guy all the time, and yet he was a middle eastern guy from Palestine. Painting, like all art is subject to change depending on the artist perception or the hip thing to do. If the favor of the moment was fatter people, slim people would ask people to paint them larger than they were. Just like Photoshop today. So if people liked whiter looking people for a moment, they could be painted whiter. Painting is not really a 1:1 ratio is what I'm saying.