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[Coxy]

Uh, tangential (but still hilariously on topic) you probably mean Inuit there. Eskimo is an insulting term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo

Inuit is also an insulting term, somebody hasnt been watching QI

 

[Durante]

I don't think anyone would argue Czech artists wouldn't even know black people existed. The point is it's a worse than flimsy way of assessing how common black people were in Bohemia at this time.

Yes, I know. The person is trying to say that people ethnically related to the Crimean Tatars and the blonde haired Cumans should be seen as a) 'of colour' and b) common in Bohemia because they were involved in 12th century wars with central European countries. Nobody is denying that ethnic minorities did not exist in this era, but positing the idea that the developers are being historically disingenuous by not including black people in their game about a this small Bohemian village is ludicrous.

For the record, I am Czech and I've studied Czech history at Charles University, and similarly we are discussing a Czech outfit making a historically Czech game. I understand and share the desire to have games be more inclusive with minorities, but there is also room for games striving for a realistic reflection of historical times.

Thanks for your insight. That's what I assumed from my limited knowledge of the history of the region, but it's much better to have a more educated take on the subject.

 

[FACE]

Can you honestly read something like this:
And tell me that I'm projecting when I say that statements such as these are intended to imply racism on part of the developers?

There's also this:

The problem comes into focus when the developers make these kind of claims:

Warhorse called its system, “the ultimate character customization tool ever invented,” and added that your gear will get bloody and dirty as you slog your way through battles, and that many parameters of an avatar’s body can be altered

That’s a pretty hefty claim to make along with the total exclusion of women and people of color.

It reads like this person is implying the devs are racist and sexist.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

the internet makes real people out of strawmen. the irony is that it's the moderates which usually give these fringe elements the spotlight by looking for the most aggressive and easily picked apart opposition to their own position. the result is that these fringe elements dominate the conversation making it difficult to discuss something as inoffensive as the historical representation of black people in medieval europe without battle lines being drawn.

There were actually some really good rebuttals of the original post like this one: http://its-ashe.tumblr.com/post/75601926251/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

There is some minor strawmanning in the form of centralising the argument around whether or not Warhorse are racists, but the actual historical discussion is a good one. I've visited Prague and remember being amazed at how many times it had seen large migrations (or invasions) from other regions so I'm pretty open minded about the subject in question, but would never argue that I have a firm grounding in the history of the Bohemian region as a result. So I'm pretty fascinated by the topic being discussed here.

I've never touched the Fable series because the idea of a game with character creation not allowing you to be anything but white aggravated me.

You should, you'll quickly forget any aggravation caused by racial homogeneousness because you're so aggravated at how terrible the games are.

 

[TheOGB]

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, I'M SO SICK OF PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE THINGS FAIR ALL THE TIME, SHUT UP AND LET ME IGNORE/TREAT ENTIRE GROUPS OF PEOPLE LIKE SHIT


...
An anti-social justice warrior coalition.
Anti-social justice.
Anti-justice.
The absolute fuckery.

 

[Jarate]

While most likely there were other ethnicities in medieval europe, and all that Jazz the number would be close to around 1-5% of the people there. Merchants, scholars, travelers, wayward people, religious, would all move to all different cultures. This isnt the trek from Rome to China, these countries and ethnicities are all fairly close and common.

Of course, it also depends on where the game takes place, a small town or a small hamlet, it would make sense for it to theoretically be all white, a huge city though would see a lot of POC due to the money and trading

 

[Dark Octave]

So a children's movie can have a talking snowman and a game can have dragons and goblins but races other than white are out of the question?

 

[Durante]

We're talking armies of Africans invading a continent and very large groups of non-white people who are known to have been there through historical record and archeology.

There is historical record of "very large groups of non-white people" in the bohemian countryside during the historical period in question? Please share. Unless you count Jews or Roma, which I wouldn't be surprised to find there.

We're not discussing some vague idea of "Europe" here (parts of which absolutely were invaded, yes), but rather a very specific location. I think much of the disconnect may stem from people unaware of where exactly Bohemia is, otherwise I fail to see how any talk of African invasions even factors into it.

So a children's movie can have a talking snowman and a game can have dragons and goblins but races other than white are out of the question?

FYI, the major marketing tagline for this game is "Dungeons & No Dragons".

 

[Messofanego]

There were actually some really good rebuttals of the original post like this one: http://its-ashe.tumblr.com/post/75601926251/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

That is an interesting read, see I'm getting to learn some stuff about Roma and Tatars I would never have. Positive side of all of this

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

So a children's movie can have a talking snowman and a game can have dragons and goblins but races other than white are out of the question?

Eh, read the OP? This game goal is not exactly being a fantasy RPG

 

[BajiBoxer]

I probably did misrepresent what the game is about. I saw someone called me out on that but didn't have time to reply. I mostly went by the small descriptions of the game that I saw in the original post about a seduction game play element and historically accurate combat. Like the guy I was arguing with on his not needing research and trusting only his immediate perceptions, I made a poorly researched statement of my own to get my two cents in before taking off for work. I'm sorry folks. I fucked up and made myself a big fat hypocrite.

 

[pants]

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, I'M SO SICK OF PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE THINGS FAIR ALL THE TIME, SHUT UP AND LET ME IGNORE/TREAT ENTIRE GROUPS OF PEOPLE LIKE SHIT


...
An anti-social justice warrior coalition.
Anti-social justice.
Anti-justice.
The absolute fuckery.

Not liking a group of people doesnt immediately mean you are against their message.

 

[ichtyander]

There were actually some really good rebuttals of the original post like this one: http://its-ashe.tumblr.com/post/75601926251/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

Thanks, the reply from the link is much more constructive and sheds even more light on the matter.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

That is an interesting read, see I'm getting to learn some stuff about Roma and Tatars I would never have. Positive side of all of this

It brings a tear to my eye. Prague in particular has a lot of significance for me, since it's where my daughter was conceived, so this is all good stuff.

 

[BajiBoxer]

There is historical record of "very large groups of non-white people" in the bohemian countryside during the historical period in question? Please share. Unless you count Jews or Roma, which I wouldn't be surprised to find there.

We're not discussing some vague idea of "Europe" here (parts of which absolutely were invaded, yes), but rather a very specific location. I think much of the disconnect may stem from people unaware of where exactly Bohemia is, otherwise I fail to see how any talk of African invasions even factors into it.


FYI, the major marketing tagline for this game is "Dungeons & No Dragons".

Actually, I was counting the Roma.

 

[Dictator93]

Inuit is also an insulting term, somebody hasnt been watching QI

I like the way Canada does it "First nationers" and what not when generalising the various tribes of Canada.

Or the scientific classication of "aboriginals." (Ureinwohner/Eingeborenen seems right)

 

[FoneBone]

Someone sent ONE EMAIL.

Someone else wrote ONE TUMBLR POST.

The only harassment has been towards the person who wrote the post from a bunch of people on Reddit who are ultra-sensitive to anything which even looks like social-justice activism. The internet exists as a place for open discourse and personal editorialising about issues in which you're interested, someone did that and was subjected to death threats for their trouble.

Agreed. The reaction to anyone at all raising concerns about race, gender, or sexuality is far more oppressive than any so-called "social justice warrior."

 

[Minister of the Dog]

There were actually some really good rebuttals of the original post like this one: http://its-ashe.tumblr.com/post/75601926251/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

Reading through that, the Queen of Sheba really stands out, a blonde, black queen in Europe? Turns out that it's a painting of a queen from the kingdom of Sheba, which existed on Yemen's actual territory (according to Wikipedia), the source for both kingdom and queen being found on religious texts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba

So while it's a painting done c. 1405 in Bohemia, it doesn't really prove it would be historically accurate to have blonde black women in the game, does it? It's a painting from an important person in history/religion/tradition, not a painting from someone who was actually living in Bohemia during that time; something like a painting of king Solomon.

I'm ignorant on the topic of diversity in medieval Bohemia, so I won't comment on that (people that have studied this period have posted already), but I think that presenting the Queen of Sheba as a reason to support their argument is not that relevant.

Also, how common is for black people to have blonde hair? Maybe the artist hadn't seen a black person before, and they just assumed how they'd look like? This is just speculation, obviously.

 

[Messofanego]

It brings a tear to my eye. Prague in particular has a lot of significance for me, since it's where my daughter was conceived, so this is all good stuff.

I lived in Prague for 3 years, it's a cool place. I didn't get to go out much other than some castles and museums because of studies, and all the dog poop everywhere

Prague has the best transport system I've found in a European city, but this is getting off-topic.

 

[Dawnblade]

The Offended Age

 

[Perkel]

The blog which asked the question is about challenging the misconceptions about the presence of non-white people in medieval fiction, so their initial queries were based upon the assumption that it was a flaw in the game's accuracy. When corrected, they said that the small area represented in the game makes it a reasonable explanation, but pointed out that being representative of the entire spectrum of human experiences present in the time period being depicted was clearly not a goal of the developers.

There is no controversy here. Black people existed in Bohemia at the time of the game, the developers chose not to depict them for whatever reason. The "manufactured controversy" exists, but it's not from the person who asked the question in the first place.

Just because black people existed it doesn't mean they were "living" there.

Developers rumored that for example main protagonist will be able to take wife, talk with nobility and possibly be a general.

Any of those above would be impossible for a black person in medieval times. Black person living in Europe at that time should be happy that church didn't burn him at stake or he can live another day not being beaten to death by mob or enslaved.

Naturally owning land for himself or even a horse would be rather impossible without being a friend to some powerful white man.

Same is with women. Women at those times were married at 13-14 only via father choice and by 18 years old girl would have bunch of children already.

Developer tries to do realistic RPG set in Bohemia like land. Having black people would be unrealistic and playing as black protagonist would be totally unrealistic.

 

[Azih]

Inuit is also an insulting term, somebody hasnt been watching QI

Huh, learn something new everyday. Is that where Inupiat-Yupik comes from?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Just because black people existed it doesn't mean they were "living" there.

Developers rumored that for example main protagonist will be able to take wife, talk with nobility and possibly be a general.

Any of those above would be impossible for a black person in medieval times. Black person living in Europe at that time should be happy that church didn't burn him at stake or he can live another day not being beaten to death by mob or enslaved.

Naturally owning land for himself or even a horse would be rather impossible without being a friend to some powerful white man.

Same is with women. Women at those times were married at 13-14 only via father choice and by 18 years old girl would have bunch of children already.

Developer tries to do realistic RPG set in Bohemia like land. Having black people would be unrealistic and playing as black protagonist would be totally unrealistic.

From your sentence structure I'm going to guess you're...different

But you may want to think about what you've just posted.

 

[Atrophis]

Just how far does this game take its realism? I'm assuming it has perma death, no magical healing bandages, one hit kills and the like?

 

[Coxy]

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, I'M SO SICK OF PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE THINGS FAIR ALL THE TIME, SHUT UP AND LET ME IGNORE/TREAT ENTIRE GROUPS OF PEOPLE LIKE SHIT


...
An anti-social justice warrior coalition.
Anti-social justice.
Anti-justice.
The absolute fuckery.

Lots of shitty groups have nice sounding titles, especially those with a strong sense of self righteousness.

"Citizens against Special Privilege" probably sounds pretty good to you but they're a racist group

 

[rottame]

I think the use of Social Justice Warrior as an insult is incredibly funny. Look at that person, they care about sexism and racism and homophobia by criticizing cartoons, TV shows and videogames!

That's my biggest problem with so-called SJW (I don't like the term cause it's mocking, and I don't think any good discussion can come out of calling people names). You fight racism by opposing racial profiling, by supporting laws that punish sexist and homophobic acts, by volonteering for a charity helping refugees? You have all my support.
You campaign against a cartoon having only white people? Sorry, you are doing nothing for your cause. If anything, you're alienating people.

 

[striferser]

Dat hate email...

Seriously, i think it will be interesting to ask why developer decide not to include POC in their historical RPG game, we might get nice discussion out of this, the reason, the implication of it. But no, some fucking idiot who can't stand critism must send hate/death threat email to those who point that out.

 

[Perkel]

From your sentence structure I'm going to guess you're...different

But you may want to think about what you've just posted.

In those times being minority of white color skin as jew could kill you. Being black for people living there would probably mean you are devil and they would kill you.

This is why i posted "you should be happy" because realistically being black in those times in europe wasn't safe.

 

[KKRT00]

Also original 'research' claims that there were mongols on Bohemia territory before XIII century, because of Battle of Legnica, which is not true. They never got that far.

----

I wont even comment on African invasion...

===

Developer tries to do realistic RPG set in Bohemia like land. Having black people would be unrealistic and playing as black protagonist would be totally unrealistic.

Yeah lol. Actually having dragons would be more realistic than playing a black skin knight.

 

[rottame]

It has to do with them just as much as it does for every developer making a game. This will continue to be an issue if every developer making a game can say "well this isn't our problem". Honestly if every game, two years before release, had someone say, "hey, maybe we should think about the diversity in our game's characters" it would help things immensely, even if for a particular game they decide it wouldn't be appropriate due to the historical setting or whatever other valid reason.

Why? Why should they? Why should variety being even considered for every game? And what if someone doesn't want a "diverse cast of characters" in their book/movie/game not for a "historical setting or whatever other valid reason" but just because it doesn't fit their vision?

You want more variety in the game you're making? Great. You want to support games that have different ethnicities and genders in them? Cool. What I don't like is implying that there is always a moral obbligation to consider the issue. Art is not about filling character slots with as many diverse types as possible.

 

[ultratruman]

Reading through that, the Queen of Sheba really stands out, a blonde, black queen in Europe? Turns out that it's a painting of a queen from the kingdom of Sheba, which existed on Yemen's actual territory (according to Wikipedia), the source for both kingdom and queen being found on religious texts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba

So while it's a painting done c. 1405 in Bohemia, it doesn't really prove it would be historically accurate to have blonde black women in the game, does it? It's a painting from an important person in history/religion/tradition, not a painting from someone who was actually living in Bohemia during that time; something like a painting of king Solomon.

I'm ignorant on the topic of diversity in medieval Bohemia, so I won't comment on that (people that have studied this period have posted already), but I think that presenting the Queen of Sheba as a reason to support their argument is not that relevant.

Also, how common is for black people to have blonde hair? Maybe the artist hadn't seen a black person before, and they just assumed how they'd look like? This is just speculation, obviously.

This point has been raised. Apparently, because 13th century Czechs were aware of the existence of black people at this time, this means there must have been a lot of black people living in the Czech lands.

The reality is Bohemia has always had a strong Christian culture and any artist worth his salt would've known about St Maurice and biblical figures like the Queen of Sheba. I don't really know why there is a painting of St Jerome there, I guess Dalmatians count as black people?

I'm saddened by this debacle, because it's is quite common for extreme right-wing political groups in central and eastern Europe to hijack this fascinating period of history to support their poisonous ideas of racial purity. We should be able to enjoy this small historical game Warhorse Studios are making without being made to feel guilty by the possible political connotations.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Yeah lol. Actually having dragons would be more realistic than playing a black knight.

lol

lol

lol

 

[rottame]

The argument "in this game/movie/book you have fantasy element x, therefore y could exist" is flawed. There are different layers of consistency, based on the tradition of the genre, people's expectations etc.
If a game has dragons, it doesn't mean that it can have laser guns as well.

 

[Dark Octave]

FYI, the major marketing tagline for this game is "Dungeons & No Dragons".

Eh, read the OP? This game goal is not exactly being a fantasy RPG

I'm talking about the complaints about Frozen and Lord of the Rings.

I don't know anything about this game. My bad for not making that clearer.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I could handle things like the game not having People of Color, but using "realism" as an excuse for an animated movie featuring talking snow men is a bit too much for me.

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

If I can't play as a trangender black women, I will call it racist, transphopic and misogyny.

Spoiler

Just kidding, pls don't ban me :I

He was actually banned for this? smh

 

[Dictator93]

I'm saddened by this debacle, because it's is quite common for extreme right-wing political groups in central and eastern Europe to hijack this fascinating period of history to support their poisonous ideas of racial purity. We should be able to enjoy this small historical game Warhorse Studios are making without being made to feel guilty by the possible political connotations.

This is something that happens quite a bit in central and eastern europe. But I think this game is going to paint a very worldly realistic view of the history there. Not some nationalistic legend of anysort extolling the virtues of bohemia or something

 

[besada]

He was actually banned for this? smh

No, he was banned for a single sentence, content-less post. Much like yours, except yours explicitly violates the TOS.

In future, if you'd like to discuss moderation in general or in specific, PM a mod.

 

[ultratruman]

This game is going to paint a very worldly realistic view of the history there. Not some nationalistic legend of anysort extolling the virtues of bohemia or something

I agree completely, it's just a shame the developers are being hounded with these accusations for choosing to make an honest, apolitical game set in this period.

 

[besada]

I agree completely, it's just a shame the developers are being hounded with these accusations for choosing to make an honest, apolitical game set in this period.

In what way are they being hounded? A couple of questions were asked, they answered, Reddit made a big deal of it.

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

No, he was banned for a single sentence, content-less post. Much like yours, except yours explicitly violates the TOS.

In future, if you'd like to discuss moderation in general or in specific, PM a mod.

People post single sentence, content-less responses like "itshappening.gif" all the time though. I don't know how mine explicitly violates the Terms of Service, but I will take your word for it, re-read that, and in the meantime I apologize.

 

[AlimNassor]

I would be pretty mad if they shoehorned in a white guy in a primarily POC setting. I can't help but think they would shove that white guy in solely to not piss off white folk who get fearful around non-whites. SJWs are pretty stupid, they should not be compared to activists. SJWs are tumblr kids who get offended over virtually everything. Their hearts are in the right place, but, most the time they take it to extreme censorship.

 

[bishoptl]

People post single sentence, content-less responses like "itshappening.gif" all the time though. I don't know how mine explicitly violates the Terms of Service, but I will take your word for it, re-read that, and in the meantime I apologize.

Keep doubling down, it's working for you.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I would be pretty mad if they shoehorned in a white guy in a primarily POC setting. I can't help but think they would shove that white guy in solely to not piss off white folk who get fearful around non-whites. SJWs are pretty stupid, they should not be compared to activists. SJWs are tumblr kids who get offended over virtually everything. Their hearts are in the right place, but, most the time they take it to extreme censorship.

Did you read the OP and/or linked articles, or are you just ad libbing?

 

[ultratruman]

In what way are they being hounded? A couple of questions were asked, they answered, Reddit made a big deal of it.

Well 'hounded' is a little dramatic, but indie developers and particularly Kickstarter projects are, out of necessity, very sensitive towards online perceptions. The last thing any independent developer wants is a social media stink around their product, most go out of their way to seem as socially progressive as possible. It's an extremely volatile topic to be associated with.

 

[besada]

Well 'hounded' is a little dramatic, but indie developers and particularly Kickstarter projects are, out of necessity, very sensitive towards online perceptions. The last thing any independent developer wants is a social media stink around their product, most go out of their way to seem as socially progressive as possible. It's an extremely volatile topic to be associated with.

Fair enough, although I'll note that some controversy has worked well for projects, too. I suspect that any backers they lose from people flying off the handle they'll make up for with folks that disagree concerning the need for POC in the game.

Not to mention that they've already nearly doubled their goal, so it's not as if the controversy is going to sink them.

 

[Cimeas]

I am a passionate supporter of social justice, from increasing financial equality (through some measure of redistribution via taxation), to ending racism, sexism, transphobia etc.., but that does not make me what the reddit people describe as an 'SJW' or Social Justice Warrior.

That refers to people who make posts criticising the announcement of the royal baby as a boy or saying they try and reject white males from university or say that all Penis-in-Vagina sex is rape

And sure, some of them are trolls, but some of them may exist, and say some truly shocking things. Just to correct that thing in the article.

 

[Jarate]

Also, for any game developers or 3d modelers out there

Ehen working on a game, do you just palette swap people to make them, let's say in this case, 'black', or do you have to create a new 3d model of the head to make the character look 'black' (skull shapes and facial features of Africans are different then European Caucasians)

Im just wondering if this could be a reason why this specific game doesnt have POC NPCs because it would add another few models to do them right. Thats why I wanna know of big name companies do this, or just palette swap.

 

[ProjectGemini07]

No, he was banned for a single sentence, content-less post.

If that's the standard, then plainly the topic of consistent application of that "rule" is something management around these parts might want to consider adding to the agenda of the next staff meeting.

 

[Sparkedglory]

All of this makes me want a medieval game similar to the manga "knights". A black main character, and he kicks all sorts of ass.