Of course everyone can ask whatever they want. But this is not like a game where you can only turn right. It's more like asking why there are no French people in Assassin's Creed 2. I'm pretty sure there were French people in Florence during the renaissance. But statistically their presence was irrelevant.
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People of colour in Kingdom Come: Deliverance - A discussion (Read the OP)
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
Of course everyone can ask whatever they want. But this is not like a game where you can only turn right. It's more like asking why there are no French people in Assassin's Creed 2. I'm pretty sure there were French people in Florence during the renaissance. But statistically their presence was irrelevant.
So, if they exist, what's the problem doing a story about one? The creators choose to tell the stories they find interesting. Since you acknowledge that POC did exist in the Han dynasty, wouldn't that be a fascinating story?
I don't get why you said it would upset you. Sure, if they're sprinkled around randomly, walking the streets with no special attention in the middle of the Han Dynasty, that would be pretty weird. But if you met a black sailor at the port? Or as part of the Emperor's retinue you saw black acrobats from furthest Africa? How would those be out of place, since stuff like that actually did happen?
No one's saying Warhorse are racists if they don't wedge a black guy into 13th century Bohemia. But if they wanted someone who wasn't white, they could toss in a Turkic nomad, who were all over that area, without batting an eye or harming the story. So they've made a choice not to do so. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone noticing that.
jim-jam bongs
Member
The blog which asked the question is about challenging the misconceptions about the presence of non-white people in medieval fiction, so their initial queries were based upon the assumption that it was a flaw in the game's accuracy. When corrected, they said that the small area represented in the game makes it a reasonable explanation, but pointed out that being representative of the entire spectrum of human experiences present in the time period being depicted was clearly not a goal of the developers.
There is no controversy here. Black people existed in Bohemia at the time of the game, the developers chose not to depict them for whatever reason. The "manufactured controversy" exists, but it's not from the person who asked the question in the first place.
Agreed. To me, the issue isn't the legitimate move to not include POC (although an argument could be made either way), it's just that some crazy anti-SJW sub-reddit got a hold of it and decided to send death threats to the author of MPOC.
The studio, has, thankfully, stayed above the fray and conducted itself in a professional manner.
I totally get where they're coming from, and I get that they didn't initiate this. But the snark in their response makes it feel like they're saying "yes, this needs to be changed." They are making a value judgement. The response they received was scummy. People SHOULD have been a lot more diplomatic.
But "Warhorse, you proclaim you have a great character generation system" (game) but only have a white male protagonist (story)" really does feel like them saying "we want you to change this," and that's why I felt invited to say what I did.
You're right. Art shouldn't be free from criticism. If someone sets a game in New York City and only has white dudes, something is probably very wrong with the game.
For me, it all breaks down to one thing. Is this art honest? Is it human? So honest, human art featuring a white male protagonist only? I have no complaints.
I honestly feel as though quite a few people who complain about the lack of representation aren't doing it because they're concerned about the honesty of the work ("you should be able to play as a female character!" for instance, is not inherently bad; good narratives require solid characters, not the ability to play as anyone under the sun), but because they believe in the (silly) notion of activism.
As someone who believes that it is art that initiates societal change, not activism, this bugs me. Art is an exploration and understanding of what it means to be human. Activism exists to balance the scales. Its purpose is... not pure.
Yes, I absolutely wish there were more games featuring all sorts of demographics. If I had more people working with me, I'd be exploring a ton of avenues, but I don't. I'm just me, and there's only so much I can do.
Making value judgments about art based on a perceived societal need is a mistaken viewpoint, in my personal opinion. And I feel that's what some people are doing. Hence my response.
People complained that Up, one of the most human, beautiful stories out there didn't pass a useless test that Sucker Punch passes?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
No the bullying, shaming, moral browbeating and trying to shut done all discourse if people don't 100% agree with you that bullying, shaming, and moral browbeating are good tools for social change.
Don't worry It's right here in my fannypack dude.
the point is that having non-white people in the game would be realistic too, therefore not having them is a choice made by the developer
and at no point did anyone ask the developer to change anything about the game
I dont need some blog and research, because i live in similar region and i can tell You, for a fact, that possibility of meeting any non-white people outside of major agglomerations is almost none and thats XXI century. In medieval times the chance would be hundred times lower.
"The entire spectrum of human experiences"? So, why there are not people with face tumors? Why no people without one or more limbs? Why not albinos? Why not Scandinavian people, why not... (etc. etc.)
Seriously, realism doesn't mean "representing any possible human condition in a specific time and place".
RubberJohnny
Banned
Er, the only ones bullying here are the group "Death to SJW" who have been attacking the developer.
The thing about statistical unlikelihoods is that given the nature of this RPG, it is probable that the protagonist will be a very statistically unlikely person. How many Bohemian blacksmiths of that time ever did anything worth making an RPG about? In which case it comes down to Warhorse deciding to include one statistical unlikelihood and not another, which is a choice they are free to make and is also a choice people are free to discuss and criticize or defend if they so please.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Add "social justice warrior" to the list of code words after "thug" and "special interests."
It's fine if they want the game to be all white, but in that case just say "our fantasy is an all-white medieval Europe, and it's our game, so there" and not "historically accurate" when a cursory knowledge of history will prove that it isn't.
It's fine if they want the game to be all white, but in that case just say "our fantasy is an all-white medieval Europe, and it's our game, so there" and not "historically accurate" when a cursory knowledge of history will prove that it isn't.
TheSpoiler
Member
It's not as if it'd be wrong to place that in the game, but that's simply not the developer's intention. It's rare. The subject of the game isn't on that rarity. If we go by those numbers of rarity, you'd see one in a million. You might not see him at all!
I acknowledge it being part of the Han dynasty, but it was so far underneath 1 percent that historically it was barely ever acknowledged in general.
Once again, I repeat, I have no problems with people asking questions. But if that's how they are going in a historical light, then that's cool. There's no reason, however, to sprinkle a few if the subject matter is trying to be historically accurate. I mean, if you wanted that, cool, but it'd be a 1 in a million chance all things considered.
Things like Silk Road happened, so it's not as if they didn't see them, but once again, it was such a rarity that it would feel forced to see a random dude walking around.
(Black sailors and acrobats weren't commonplace around China's area, IIRC.)
This actually drives me more batshit than lack of representation. Don't get me started on "Renaissance" Fair(e)s.
While I appreciate your viewpoint, putting it in a flippant manner as you did in the post people responded to doesn't help your case. For disagreeing with people on how to deal with various issues at times, I've had plenty of social justice types label me as mansplainer/concern troll/racist/sexist/homophobic/all sorts of other nonsense--my belief is that the social justice stuff viewpoint often leads to irrational assaults on any form of dissent, no matter how valid or even valuable.
But you don't beat irrationality with being flippant. You don't fight fire with fire. You be the best person you can be, and either bring them around to your perspective, or let them reveal themselves for the horribly angry, irrational people they are.
Do your best to treat people with courtesy and compassion, especially on issues that have a habit of upsetting people.
TheSpoiler
Member
Did they really say "none existed at all" or "rarity"?
And what does this have to do with this game or these developers?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Yes those people are using the same tactics I associate with sjw.
Yeah you're right.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Neither, they said "unfortunately, there were almost none."
And this is off topic,but seeing the "arguments" you're making coming from an avatar of a smiling black man is really off-putting
Just because there were some POC in the whole of Bohemia at the time doesn't make the choices of having or not having any in the game equally realistic. Take a random 3x3 km piece of Bohemian countryside in the 13th century and your chance to find any POC there is probably (much) less than 1%.
But it is historically accurate.
Again, this is simple statistics, if people wouldn't look at it with tons of preconceptions, agendas and emotion they would see that immediately.
TheSpoiler
Member
Says the guy using the icon of a crazed priest who is trying to reset the world via a vampire's bones and a plant baby.
Why don't you go complain about those expensive pants getting ruined?
Minister of the Dog
Member
Death_to_SJW is a user, TumblrInAction is the group.
This is certainly one of the best points in the thread. Regardless of how one feels about the authenticity of POC in 13th century Bohemia, the idea that someone would threaten someone over it boggles the mind.
FrozenCell
Member
but can you seduce local men?
I can see why people complain about it in a fantasy setting(even if most of the time there's good reason), but this game is supposed to be realistic. There's no reason to expect a multicultural society in a random piece of land in medieval central europe.
This is a fabricated issue and the only "solution" means the devs would have to abandon one of the game's foundations.
This is a fabricated issue and the only "solution" means the devs would have to abandon one of the game's foundations.
It has to do with them just as much as it does for every developer making a game. This will continue to be an issue if every developer making a game can say "well this isn't our problem". Honestly if every game, two years before release, had someone say, "hey, maybe we should think about the diversity in our game's characters" it would help things immensely, even if for a particular game they decide it wouldn't be appropriate due to the historical setting or whatever other valid reason.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I would, but I have already exchanged them for THE ARMOUR OF THE SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR!
i agree that portraying the population of a random small piece of bohemia as 100% white is historically accurate, and nobody is saying otherwise.
the point is that including some people of color would also be historically accurate because they were there at the time.
the developer made a choice not to include them in the game. i don't really have a problem with that personally but all that happened here was that someone pointed out that didn't necessarily have to be the case and then they started getting death threats.
ultratruman
Banned
Wow, this is former 2k Czech guys?
Awesome to see this getting funded, great bunch.
Awesome to see this getting funded, great bunch.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Well, that's wonderful but they did do research and non-white people lived in the area in which the game is set at the time.
Who said they had to be representative? The blog is about a misconception, they asked the developers if they were operating under that misconception. When told they weren't, the blogger concluded something perfectly reasonable and didn't demand anything. They made a snarky and entirely correct remark. That's all.
Videogames -- even ones advertised as realistic -- almost always have you playing a character of extraordinary fortitude who goes on to accomplish a ridiculous amount of feats that only a few people in history have accomplished. We accept that the characters we play would be deemed historically notable for their achievements, which means we are accepting from the outset that we are an extreme minority. Even games that try to simulate the role of being a grunt in an army end up providing the individual to enact change to a degree that is simply not possible in real life. This is a very real suspension of disbelief that we all make and that is a major affront to realism in videogames.
If the developers are just picking any ol' square of land in Bohemia, why can't it contain one black person? It already contains at least one improbably large and heroic figure, something that was certainly far less common.
Deified Data
Banned
Basically my thoughts. It doesn't bother me. It's a realistic representation of the time and place. I'm not going to be upset if there aren't any blacks or whites in a Yakuza game, for example, even if statistically you're bound to see a couple.
I sympathize with this, but the social justice side of this debate has bullied enough people in the past that I can no longer give them the benefit of the doubt in good conscience. It's always okay to speak your mind, and it's never okay to bully someone who's opinion you don't like. That's something both sides could learn in equal measure.
captainpat
Member
Bullied how? Are they the one's sending death threats?
Well, the first thing I said in this thread is how silly the death threats were. We totally agree on that. Stupid, hateful, idiotic, you name it.
What I strongly dislike is the undertone I read in some of these arguments that Warhorse had 2 equally viable/likely options (POC or no POC) and somehow chose the "more racist" one. That's simply not the case. They had one exceedingly historically and statistically likely option for their setting, which is the one they chose.
ichtyander
Member
I'm loving how some people are trying to educate Czech people on Czech history.
And I ask again, are then historical dramas about the Tudor king Henry VIII or the 12th century Anarchy in England problematic or inaccurate for depicting an all white population and cast? There are mentions and records of some people of color in various historical periods in Europe yet somehow the writers and directors have to go out of their way and depict people of color for the sake of racial equality in media?
And I ask again, are then historical dramas about the Tudor king Henry VIII or the 12th century Anarchy in England problematic or inaccurate for depicting an all white population and cast? There are mentions and records of some people of color in various historical periods in Europe yet somehow the writers and directors have to go out of their way and depict people of color for the sake of racial equality in media?
TheSpoiler
Member
Video games themselves will never be truly realistic, but striving for such can happen, and that means the less liberties taken the better. I see what you are getting at, but there are gaps within that, from a historically "strong" person to a person of rarity within an area at a certain time.
Wait, does the game contain something more unrealistic than a person of color?
Anyway, it's basically a representation of the time period, not a super realistic thing. They are going for realism, and they choose to not contain a person of color. They could go for an incredibly rare chance to see a black person, but they didn't, and they didn't have to.
I'm not saying I'd be up in arms if they DID include one or two, I'm saying I can see why they didn't at all because it was very uncommon. I may not be relaying my message correctly. Damn the mornings with no coffee and loads of work.
One can say that according to statistics, the probability of picking any random 2 square km area of the time period that contains POC is very small but not zero.
The devs, however, are building a 2 square km area, so they made a conscious decision that the one they built would have no people of color instead of building one that would, according to probability, have POC.
The devs, however, are building a 2 square km area, so they made a conscious decision that the one they built would have no people of color instead of building one that would, according to probability, have POC.
No, research is about whole Bohemia [mostly around Prague], not a land where game takes place.
ultratruman
Banned
Black people did live in medieval Europe, but referencing paintings and religious icons is a hilariously terrible way of assessing how many there were. There was virtually no slavery during this time in Europe (none in Czech lands) and serfdom was a fact of life for everyone. Even today, black people living in Bohemia are a tiny minority of the population, especially in the countryside.
I understand this is a touchy subject for North Americans, but it's just a fact. Having an ethnically mixed village in medieval Bohemia would have been exceptional, which is not what this game is about.
absolutely nobody called them racist though, i don't know where you're getting that
this is what warhorse said:
"there were none in bohemia at that time"
look at the evidence presented in the tumblr answer: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75252294049/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
No one was trying to force the devs to do anything; Medieval POC asked a question and got an answer, and gave their thoughts with regard to that answer.
The discomfort for most people, I would imagine, is that the devs have turned down an opportunity to appeal to more people by refusing to add color and polygons (although that can admittedly get expensive) in the name of keeping it real. It's not even something to get angry about, it's just like, "ok, that's one more."
The discomfort for most people, I would imagine, is that the devs have turned down an opportunity to appeal to more people by refusing to add color and polygons (although that can admittedly get expensive) in the name of keeping it real. It's not even something to get angry about, it's just like, "ok, that's one more."
Chocolate & Vanilla
Fuck Strawberry
Romans were shipping in people from all over North Africa and Western Asia long before this game's chronological setting.
I don't really have a point.
I said undertone.
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of the arguments I read here do seem to me like are intended to imply that Warhorse made a racist choice.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I'm still waiting on that medieval African RPG setting...