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[Stone Ocean]

Under her breast you can see the straps firmly atached, meaning that it does give SOME support.

Never said it was ok ... on the contrary, if you read my posts you can read that I like Poison because representation matters, not because of her design.

That said, her breasts does have MUCH more support than a character who would make more sense to fight topless because that is what would happen 5 seconds of someone doing an actual cosplay of that without any tape

If "representation matters" is enough for you, why do you care how female characters are dressed as long as they are female?

You either accept caveats/make compromises when it comes to character design or you don't, you can't have both.

 

[JP_]

Now, you say its tribalistic? I say thats exactly what happened. You had non gamers tuning in to ESPN and going "WTF is this shit?" on social media and then you had Gamers going "Suck it!" in defense. Like, that actually occured. So back and look. I sadly see the shit happen every single day in my store for the past decade. People who view games as a complete waste of time vs. those who don't and love it and defend it. The stigma was not against SFV, it was against games and gamers itself.

Never said it didn't happen. I'm not defending the people saying games no have place -- I disagree completely. I think we can respond to that better, though -- pretending games are infallible is not productive.

Art direction didn't hold them back. The numbers did. Period. MOBAs, FPS and such had the numbers in terms of viewers to make it worth showing on TV. For the first time, with the support of Sony, Capcom and the biggest tournament in the world, they had the numbers.

Now, do you think ESPN Will be showing the rest of the CPT? I doubt it. Why? Money and numbers.

...that's a really strange way of looking at it. What do you think I'm suggesting it was held back from if not the numbers?

As for your assumption that SF can't reach a larger audience without ditching fighting game gameplay, I totally disagree and think that's an incredibly limited perspective on things.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I find censorship, lack of freedom of speech and creative freedom a very important issue.

To reject this for beeing "too revealing" is not that different than to mandate them to wear certain types of clothes, like a burka.

Even more worrying when violence is ok for them and is coming from a channel with a MMA show (with all my respect to MMA, it shouldn't be an issue to have a show like that if the fighters do it because they want).

Here's my honest question: how much do you think this is worth fighting for? Do you think the right move would have been for the EVO staff to tell ESPN to shove it and for them to just cut to an encore presentation of a baseball game (for instance)? Outside of this little controversy, I've heard a lot of great talk about how good of a presentation this was. I enjoyed what I saw of it last night until I crashed at about 11 PM CDT last night. Do concerns about censorship trump the desire for more exposure?

 

[Nanashrew]

I find censorship, lack of freedom of speech and creative freedom a very important issue.

To reject this for beeing "too revealing" is not that different than to mandate them to wear certain types of clothes, like a burka.

Even more worrying when violence is ok for them and is coming from a channel with a MMA show (with all my respect to MMA, it shouldn't be an issue to have a show like that if the fighters do it because they want).

I really hope my sarcasm meter is broken today. A burka? Really?

 

[HoodWinked]

its likely just a pragmatic decision.

espn is just trying to mitigate any viewer complaints about nudity to their parent company or their advertisers.

it seems perfectly fine other than if it somehow affected fuudo in some way.

 

[Platinum Mad]

its likely just a pragmatic decision.

espn is just trying to mitigate any viewer complaints about nudity to their parent company or their advertisers.

it seems perfectly fine other than if it somehow affected fuudo in some way.

Not using default costume caused Fuudo to loose. Top 8 needs to be redone right now.

 

[Mik317]

yeah as Steve said. This is a reasonable compromise.

The default design is still there.

If we want to not get called names for liking it...we need to compromise a bit. We can't call out others for not being fair in their criticism and then turn around and be equally unmoving.

There is going to have to be some give and take in this situation. And having options for these moments is the best way to go about it.

As long as they don't retroactively take the default out...having to switch when the FCC is watching isn't that bad of a compromise.

 

[SolidSnakex]

There's still a lot of time left to see how this pans out, but like I said from my first post here I think this is a really good example of the crossroads we are at in terms of the dialogue the industry is having.

Unless ESPN or some other network is going to guarantee Capcom that they're going to air their big tournaments every year regardless of ratings, then I don't think there's much of a crossroads here. As I mentioned earlier, this is the best selling piece of DLC in SFV right now

Costumes are a constant revenue steam and they're reliable unlike gaming tournaments being shown on TV. So if they're going to reject that revenue stream then they're going to need someone equally reliable, and it's hard to see ESPN or anyone else agreeing to that. So I think all you'll see is that when or if SFV is on TV again they'll just limit which costumes can be shown. They have very fansivecy outfits but they're also including other outfits that are more conservative. Mika's beach outfit is actually more conservative than Karin's

 

[Platy]

If "representation matters" is enough for you, why do you care how female characters are dressed as long as they are female?

Because women on the street fighter franchise are not diverse.

They all have basicaly the same body type and they are praticaly all sexualized at some point.

Except for makoto you do not find people just dressed to fight without any sexualization like you find in lots of male characters. You do not find diversity in body types. You do not even find diversity in SKIN TONES ! Elena is the only black girl in the entire street franchise and we have women with lots of black people on the streets like brazil !

So Street Fighter you are welcome to feel represented, as long as you perfectly fit the ridiculously body standards the devs have for women.

 

[meerak]

I can't stand her default costume, so, no problem for me! Imagine if Laura had been in. Phew!

Actually I wish they had intervened more with costumes. Some of the mirror colours were too close for me. I get that players have preference but just a tiny bit of consideration about colours and similar character outfits would go a long way to make readability easier.

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

alts aren't rated by the esrb probably...hence why the bikini stuff is coming out now

That and alt designs probably aren't made by the same guy who animated the butt slap.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Here's my honest question: how much do you think this is worth fighting for? Do you think the right move would have been for the EVO staff to tell ESPN to shove it and for them to just cut to an encore presentation of a baseball game (for instance)? Outside of this little controversy, I've heard a lot of great talk about how good of a presentation this was. I enjoyed what I saw of it last night until I crashed at about 11 PM CDT last night. Do concerns about censorship trump the desire for more exposure?

Even though your question is a valid one... it deflects from some very valid points he is making.

Violence = ok

Sexuality = NOT OK

And that's a legit problem.

 

[Alucrid]

Unless ESPN or some other network is going to guarantee Capcom that they're going to air their big tournaments every year regardless of ratings, then I don't think there's much of a crossroads here. As I mentioned earlier, this is the best selling piece of DLC in SFV right now

https://abload.de/img/28015574752_4b5bb91a41wji7.jpg[img]

Costumes are a constant revenue steam and they're reliable unlike gaming tournaments being shown on TV. So if they're going to reject that revenue stream then they're going to need someone equally reliable, and it's hard to see ESPN or anyone else agreeing to that. So I think all you'll see is that when or if SFV is on TV again they'll just limit which costumes can be shown. They have very fansivecy outfits but they're also including other outfits that are more conservative. Mika's beach outfit is actually more conservative than Karin's

[img]https://abload.de/img/18_colors084ckkx.jpg

ugh mika wearing sandals gonna have to pick a new main now

THANKS CAPCOM

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Unless ESPN or some other network is going to guarantee Capcom that they're going to air their big tournaments every year regardless of ratings, then I don't think there's much of a crossroads here. As I mentioned earlier, this is the best selling piece of DLC in SFV right now

Costumes are a constant revenue steam and they're reliable unlike gaming tournaments being shown on TV. So if they're going to reject that revenue stream then they're going to need someone equally reliable, and it's hard to see ESPN or anyone else agreeing to that. So I think all you'll see is that when or if SFV is on TV again they'll just limit which costumes can be shown. They have very fansivecy outfits but they're also including other outfits that are more conservative. Mika's beach outfit is actually more conservative than Karin's

One thing I'll note here is that while I certainly don't deny that there's going to be some backlash against stuff like swimsuit DLC, I don't think that paints as big a target as something like the costume ESPN requested not be used being the default costume. And I'm not going to be presumptuous here. I haven't seen the ratings numbers. I don't know if there are any. For all I know this presentation tanked and the message delivered to ESPN is going to be one of "don't ever waste time on this shit again." But if it did well or at least showed a promising start?

And when I talk about a crossroads, I'm just talking about the conversation going on in the industry at large. Like I said, ESPN is not the first entity to express concern about sexy outfits. This has been a hot topic for quite a while. And now here gaming is getting a crack at a bigger spotlight and ESPN is just echoing the concern that has already been expressed. That's what I mean by "crossroads." This isn't just loud-mouthed progressives who like to hear their own voice whining and trying to force their views on everyone else, this is ESPN -- the biggest name in sports -- saying "yeah, this is a problem for the mainstream."

 

[Yukinari]

The best part is that from what i heard the ESPN broadcast had worse editing compared to the twitch stream. Can anyone confirm?

 

[vg260]

To people like you, it may not make a difference, but to people like me who like seeing sexy Mika fight, it does.

In the context of the event and precedents involved, I guess I can't really empathize with people knocking the overall presentation because you didn't get to see the costume exposing more butt and cleavage. Regardless of the debate over the place of the costume in the game in general, the change seemed like a completely reasonable concession given the circumstances, and I don't fault them one bit. I don't think ESPN or the viewers of this event were going to have an epiphany on our country's view of sex versus violence.

 

[Alucrid]

i don't even get what the big hubbub is about. we've had soft-banned costumes before. a ban that wasn't even asked for by someone outside of the fgc, but by members of the game's community itself. why?

This is a movement that was discussed by several members of the community to try and help turn around the image that has plagued the franchise. DOA has always been known for its over-sexualized females and just that alone has pushed people away from even trying the game. Sex Appeal in the DOA franchise will never go away but we, the community, want people to take it seriously and started the costume ban at offline tournaments to force people to focus more on the gameplay aspect of the game. This is a soft ban and is at the discretion of the TO running the game at the event. However we HIGHLY encourage people to not use the suggested costumes on stream for something like Top 8.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1001684

 

[Stone Ocean]

i don't even get what the big hubbub is about. we've had soft-banned costumes before. a ban that wasn't even asked for by someone outside of the fgc, but by members of the game's community itself. why?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1001684

Probably because it's not something that was decided by the players, I guess.

Frankly I don't get what the problem is either, it's just a bloody costume change.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

To people like you, it may not make a difference, but to people like me who like seeing sexy Mika fight, it does.

get a life, p l e a s e

it literally should not have any impact on you at all that a bunch of pixels had to put on some clothes

genuinely look at what you are posting about, think about how it got to this point

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Even though your question is a valid one... it deflects from some very valid points he is making.

Violence = ok

Sexuality = NOT OK

And that's a legit problem.

I don't really know how to address this one. Honestly, I do think that there's a conversation worth having about the acceptance of violence in society. I'm not saying that I advocate a ban, but I do sort of understand questioning whether or not MMA fighting (as an example) should be idolized. But at the same time, it IS a legitimate sport. And beating people up is core to that experience. We can discuss whether or not fighting should be banned as a sport, but there's not really a way to have the equivalent of a non-violent MMA or boxing matchup. You can't really tone down the risk of injury too significantly without "ruining" what it is at its core. And for that matter, Street Fighter isn't Mortal Kombat.

Sexy outfits are not core to the experience. Female MMA fighters and boxers aren't showing that much cleavage or butt cheek. Even pro wrestling -- once rife with nonsense like bra and panties matches during the Attitude era -- has toned that stuff way, way down. You don't have to agree that Mika's outfit needs to go, but I don't think it's logically inconsistent or hypocritical to say that a fighting game needs fighting but it doesn't need over-the-top fanservice.

 

[Nanashrew]

The best part is that from what i heard the ESPN broadcast had worse editing compared to the twitch stream. Can anyone confirm?

I dunno about editing, I didn't stay long cause I was watching a restream which got canned fast. But ESPN stream made srkevo1 look like a poverty stream.

 

[Palculator]

i don't even get what the big hubbub is about. we've had soft-banned costumes before. a ban that wasn't even asked for by someone outside of the fgc, but by members of the game's community itself. why?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1001684

Going by that thread, this decision was met with a pretty similar reaction.

Spoiler

And no, I don't even think it's a big deal in either case, it's just hilarious.

 

[Alucrid]

get a life, p l e a s e

it literally should not have any impact on you at all that a bunch of pixels had to put on some clothes

genuinely look at what you are posting about, think about how it got to this point

won't someone think about the guys who like exposed boobs?

It kinda sucks though, that for guys that do like exposed boobs, none of Juris costumes cater to that preference.

 

[Valkyr1983]

Would be better to say "these developers made breasts who does not work like breasts and women who does not wear stuff that women who have big breasts wear while doing physical activity showing that they either did not made any research about how breasts work or did not care about what they show so much to care about" ?



Or you can read like "capcom could make a switch to enable or disable certain costumes so that everyone have fun"

But the best course would be SHOW SOME FUCKING DIVERSITY WHILE CREATING FEMALE CHARACTERS then everyone will get fun since diversity DOES MEAN sexy characters.

I would totally be down for a toggle option to turn off sexy costumes if you wanted. I've never argued against options

I'm against people who don't support options

But If you want your options, I'm entitled to mine. It should be win win for everyone

 

[Palculator]

get a life, p l e a s e

it literally should not have any impact on you at all that a bunch of pixels had to put on some clothes

genuinely look at what you are posting about, think about how it got to this point

won't someone think about the guys who like exposed boobs?

How is this allowed?

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

How is this allowed?

regardless of what side anyone is on in this argument it's sad we're getting to personal attacks

 

[RedAssedApe]

The best part is that from what i heard the ESPN broadcast had worse editing compared to the twitch stream. Can anyone confirm?

i read otherwise but i didn't care to switch back and forth as i preferred the mike and seth on commentary versus james and fake ultradavid

 

[Garrett Hawke]

How is this allowed?

do you honestly not see how ridiculous this situation is? people are getting offended about a video game character being """"censored"" in a one off televised performance that has literally no impact on the game or outfit itself and the many hundreds of videos already available of said outfit or any future outfit as evidenced by the recently released swimsuit dlc

if this is something that genuinely bothers someone then they really need to reconsider their life choices

won't someone think about the guys who like exposed boobs?

there are many sites out there for people who like exposed boobs!

 

[KingBroly]

I don't really know how to address this one. Honestly, I do think that there's a conversation worth having about the acceptance of violence in society. I'm not saying that I advocate a ban, but I do sort of understand questioning whether or not MMA fighting (as an example) should be idolized. But at the same time, it IS a legitimate sport. And beating people up is core to that experience. We can discuss whether or not fighting should be banned as a sport, but there's not really a way to have the equivalent of a non-violent MMA or boxing matchup. You can't really tone down the risk of injury too significantly without "ruining" what it is at its core. And for that matter, Street Fighter isn't Mortal Kombat.

Sexy outfits are not core to the experience. Female MMA fighters and boxers aren't showing that much cleavage or butt cheek. Even pro wrestling -- once rife with nonsense like bra and panties matches during the Attitude era -- has toned that stuff way, way down. You don't have to agree that Mika's outfit needs to go, but I don't think it's logically inconsistent or hypocritical to say that a fighting game needs fighting but it doesn't need over-the-top fanservice.

All it really shows, IMO, that Capcom didn't really think about this kind of stuff when making the game despite wanting to make it an esports game. I also want to put some blame on ESPN (assumingly so) here for not vetting the costumes beforehand and saying this or that wasn't appropriate. If they deemed it inappropriate before Top 8 started, and relayed that info beforehand, we most likely never would've heard about it and this discussion wouldn't take place because no one would've questioned why Fuudo chose the outfit from the get-go.

 

[WrenchNinja]

If you really want to go out and bat hard for a skimpy outfit you're free too, but it's not above mockery.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I would totally be down for a toggle option to turn off sexy costumes if you wanted. I've never argued against options

I'm against people who don't support options

But If you want your options, I'm entitled to mine. It should be win win for everyone

The point of customization options is for others to see you using the costumes. If people can turn off costumes others are paying extra for, then we have a problem.

 

[Palculator]

do you honestly not see how ridiculous this situation is? people are getting offended about a video game character being """"censored"" in a one off televised performance that has literally no impact on the game or outfit itself and the many hundreds of videos already available of said outfit or any future outfit as evidenced by the recently released swimsuit dlc

I can see how ridiculous it is, though you're apparently blind to the fact the costume change was enforced to avoid outrage over something similarly unimportant. Your poor conduct is what I'm calling out, though. If you have an argument, make it without personal attacks. Until then, I don't care what you have to say.

 

[KLoWn]

do you honestly not see how ridiculous this situation is? people are getting offended about a video game character being """"censored"" in a one off televised performance that has literally no impact on the game or outfit itself and the many hundreds of videos already available of said outfit or any future outfit as evidenced by the recently released swimsuit dlc

if this is something that genuinely bothers someone then they really need to reconsider their life choices

I don't see how any of this excuses you throwing around insults to people that don't agree with you.

 

[ColonialHawk]

The best part is that from what i heard the ESPN broadcast had worse editing compared to the twitch stream. Can anyone confirm?

I watched on tv and had the stream open as well, switching between the two, and ESPN had a fantastic stream/showing. Even had a few things that i dont think srkevo1 was doing, like player closeups popping in and out while the match was going on showing reactions and such. ESPN was even ahead of the twitch stream (for me at least). Though ESPN's cuts to the crowd were short, but that might be due to the matches being so quick to start.

 

[Nanashrew]

Overall, you want on TV, you play by their rules. It was one costume and didn't really affect the core game or anyone's enjoyment. One costume for much more exposure.

All these people are non-FGC and watched EVO for the first time. Gallery not made by me: https://imgur.com/a/c0oqq

I think there's much more too from what I saw last night that aren't even included in that gallery. Overall, very positive reception and reaching many more people than ever before. It's a compromise, and a perfectly fine one at that.

 

[SolidSnakex]

One thing I'll note here is that while I certainly don't deny that there's going to be some backlash against stuff like swimsuit DLC, I don't think that paints as big a target as something like the costume ESPN requested not be used being the default costume. And I'm not going to be presumptuous here. I haven't seen the ratings numbers. I don't know if there are any. For all I know this presentation tanked and the message delivered to ESPN is going to be one of "don't ever waste time on this shit again." But if it did well or at least showed a promising start?

And when I talk about a crossroads, I'm just talking about the conversation going on in the industry at large. Like I said, ESPN is not the first entity to express concern about sexy outfits. This has been a hot topic for quite a while. And now here gaming is getting a crack at a bigger spotlight and ESPN is just echoing the concern that has already been expressed. That's what I mean by "crossroads." This isn't just loud-mouthed progressives who like to hear their own voice whining and trying to force their views on everyone else, this is ESPN -- the biggest name in sports -- saying "yeah, this is a problem for the mainstream."

What i'm saying is that I don't think it's really a problem for the at the end of the day because they have outfits available for all characters that would make them acceptable for TV. So it's not a situation where it's one or the other. Which means they can still have costumes that are used at most tournaments and some that aren't if the tournament is televised.

The two stages I posted above are actually a good example of what i'm talking about. The first stage (Kanzuki Beach Resort) is banned in all tournaments. This is because it can give an unfair advantage as the water can obscure objects or certain moves. But it's fine that it exists on its own. Not everyone plays SFV seriously so that aspect won't bother them. And the second shot is The Grid, it was banned from EVO. Its ban was done purely for the viewers as many find it to be a very boring stage. But again, it's fine that it exists and it's even allowed in most tournaments.

 

[Neonep]

None of this matters.

 

[J-Skee]

Is the ESPN stream available to watch in some "on demand" type of format or am I SOL? I missed all of EVO due to vacation.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

How is this allowed?

As the only mod visibly posting (possibly reading as well, I don't know), in general I would prefer civility regardless of which side of the divide you're on. However, the quoted posts aren't really over the arbitrary line in the sand that I've drawn in terms of what I'm willing to ban for. For the sake of clarity, I've issued one ban thus far, and it was for this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210441321

TIL, kids don't watch prime time.

You must be stupid.

Spoiler

Or a fuckin liar.

Your reading comprehension is shit.

Calling another poster stupid or "a fucking liar" is clearly over the line.

 

[Shadoken]

Good .... That outfit looks better anyway , they really should have toned down on Laura and Mika. Just looks fkin odd

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

The underboob outfit is actually hotter

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

Good. They thought about the kids. Now get back to skull crushing with those mondo thighs, Chun baby

 

[DeepEnigma]

The underboob outfit is actually hotter

That was the irony I eluded to early on in all of this, lol. Less is more.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

What i'm saying is that I don't think it's really a problem for the at the end of the day because they have outfits available for all characters that would make them acceptable for TV. So it's not a situation where it's one or the other. Which means they can still have costumes that are used at most tournaments and some that aren't if the tournament is televised.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but I do think it represents a potential problem when a default costume is deemed inappropriate for mass television consumption assuming your aim is a mass audience.

 

[Montresor]

I can see how ridiculous it is, though you're apparently blind to the fact the costume change was enforced to avoid outrage over something similarly unimportant. Your poor conduct is what I'm calling out, though. If you have an argument, make it without personal attacks. Until then, I don't care what you have to say.

Got 'em!

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I can see how ridiculous it is, though you're apparently blind to the fact the costume change was enforced to avoid outrage over something similarly unimportant. Your poor conduct is what I'm calling out, though. If you have an argument, make it without personal attacks. Until then, I don't care what you have to say.

It wasn't "to avoid outrage", it was to conform to broadcasting standards. If that's the issue then people should be taking up the fight with TV regulatory bodies, not with ESPN. It would be a poor hill for them to die (or get fined) on.

 

[JP_]

Overall, you want on TV, you play by their rules. It was one costume and didn't really affect the core game or anyone's enjoyment. One costume for much more exposure.

All these people are non-FGC and watched EVO for the first time. Gallery not made by me: https://imgur.com/a/c0oqq

I think there's much more too from what I saw last night that aren't even included in that gallery. Overall, very positive reception and reaching many more people than ever before. It's a compromise, and a perfectly fine one at that.

Love seeing those tweets

 

[Alucrid]

I can see how ridiculous it is, though you're apparently blind to the fact the costume change was enforced to avoid outrage over something similarly unimportant. Your poor conduct is what I'm calling out, though. If you have an argument, make it without personal attacks. Until then, I don't care what you have to say.

one helps fgc / sfv esports relations, one doesn't. i'm not going to want the future of the competitive scene sandbagged because people want to hold on to broadcasting sf v with one character wearing a specific outfit because that's what makes the game for them. not the highest level of play, the fact that it's in mandalay bay, hosted on espn2, reaching 200k streams.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It wasn't "to avoid outrage", it was to conform to broadcasting standards. If that's the issue then people should be taking up the fight with TV regulatory bodies, not with ESPN. It would be a poor hill for them to die (or get fined) on.

I honestly think that this is an internal standards and practices decision. I don't think Mika's outfit is so outrageous that they would have incurred penalties at the time of night. The game is merely rated T by the ESRB after all. And I believe that at least the first match was aired with the default costume, right?

 

[DeepEnigma]

It wasn't "to avoid outrage", it was to conform to broadcasting standards. If that's the issue then people should be taking up the fight with TV regulatory bodies, not with ESPN. It would be a poor hill for them to die (or get fined) on.

Do you have information on this in which we can read?

All I see is a tweet.

Or is this an assumption?