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[Whompa02]

FF7r definitely has the "soul" of FFXV considering they straight up reused animations from FFXV for their "gameplay video."

 

[Verendus]

It's two different games entirely, so after waiting all those years people are getting Tabata's interpretation of Versus.

People wouldn't have a beef if he just followed the original guidelines or at least had the decency to consult with Nomura on what to do. Either way I'm there day-0 but deep down everyone knows what the deal is.

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

 

[xxdoshiyarovexx]

you think the colors in these examples are "slightly" different?

ok lol

Yup, the point was the iconic structures are basically the same, and the old colors played an important part in the mood, yes. The throne room got some new flair to it and the throne isn't in front of the crystal anymore but the room is the same structure wise.

An example of Versus and XV, in Insomnia both during the day.

 

[Frumix]

The most unique thing about Stella was her seeming opposition and independence from Noctis(while sharing a past together)

It seemed like a totally new idea for FF and the way it was shown to us was ridiculously cool,charismatic and flat out badass.

Luna is the "strong summoner" archtype.Already been done in FF9 and ,imo,perfected in FF10.

Which people inferred from one cinematic without any context. She took out a sword, she's so independent! You're being more shallow than the game devs right now.

 

[TheTux]

lol what ?

when ? XD

I suppose he means in the only conversation they had, in fact the only conversation Stella ever had, lol.

 

[HeelPower]

Which people inferred from one cinematic without any context. She took out a sword, she's so independent! You're being more shallow than the game devs right now.

That one cinematic scene is significant.

Still,Luna seems to be pretty strong herself ,but it looks the tension between her and Noctis is gone.

At least FFXV hasn't given us a reason to think this opposition aspect is still in.

 

[Ran rp]

.

i wasn't even talking about the games, just the color schemes. i don't know how you can look at them and say they're only slightly different. the tower in the first example is two different temperatures.

edit: my point is those were poor examples. what i've seen of insomnia in kingsglaive doesn't evoke the same moods.

 

[Zoe]

lol what ?

when ? XD

The party scene (no voices, just subs) and the one line we ever heard from her back during the re-reveal.

 

[HerroRygar]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

For real. When Tabata was entrusted with the director role, that's a license to actually be a director, not a gofer for somebody else's vision. He tried to be respectful, but he is bringing his own vision as he has a right to do.

Honestly if I were in Tabata's shoes I would stop fielding questions about Versus XIII. It was an intriguing-looking project that, for various reasons, never really made progress and is dead. Some of its ideas and themes have been recycled into a new project which is actually going to release. If XV sucks, then it sucks, but it's not fair to keep dogging it for being something different than the original vaporware.

 

[DKHF]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

If only Nomura had planned better, including Square Enix's huge issues with Crystal Tools and FFXIV's disastrous launch into his development plans from the beginning.

 

[badcrumble]

Why? Since it was real time, it would play just like any other shooter

Shooters require totally different design with regard to movement, hit reactions, and so on. Either it'd be half-assed or it'd be a TON of extra effort per enemy (with regard to weak points and overall balancing, hitboxes, making sure they animate in ways that make them shootable, making sure they don't just rush the player, etc) for a generally optional feature.

I'd much much much rather just have lock-on shooting. Vastly simpler. There are shooters I love but they're built from the ground up as shooters.

 

[HerroRygar]

If only Nomura had planned better, including Square Enix's huge issues with Crystal Tools and FFXIV's disastrous launch into his development plans from the beginning.

A lot of things went wrong around Nomura that he had no control over, but it's disingenuous to pretend that there was a well formed project ready to be executed and only starved of personnel.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

A lot of things went wrong around Nomura that he had no control over, but it's disingenuous to pretend that there was a well formed project ready to be executed and only starved of personnel.

Yeah, I think Verendus is referring to things like Nomura putting things in trailers when he still had no idea of what exactly his plan for the game was / the story was still unfinished, so some scenes were unlikely to ever be used. That helped to create a conflicting message about what Versus's deal was.

 

[Ishida]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

Hey! Nice to see you back! And THANKS for this post. I agree completely.

 

[DKHF]

A lot of things went wrong around Nomura that he had no control over, but it's disingenuous to pretend that there was a well formed project ready to be executed and only starved of personnel.

I'm not saying it didn't happen only because of personnel but also because of not having an engine to build the game using. It was originally meant for Crystal Tools but that had to be dedicated entirely to XIII after its issues. It appears that when it finally got off the ground on another proprietary engine, it had to be shifted again to the next-gen consoles/Luminous.

Edit: And how exactly do we know there was not a well formed project ready to be executed and that it did not just have the fundamental things needed to make a game?

 

[artsi]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

Verendus preaching the truth.

 

[TheTux]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

Always nice to read your posts regarding Square Enix. I kind of agree completely with you except in my case I don't know what happened inside the company so I'd rather not blame people at random when I know nothing.

 

[Whompa02]

.

Beautifully written. A+

Completely 100% agree.

 

[Plywood]

I'm not saying it didn't happen only because of personnel but also because of not having an engine to build the game using. It was originally meant for Crystal Tools but that had to be dedicated entirely to XIII after its issues. It appears that when it finally got off the ground on another proprietary engine, it had to be shifted again to the next-gen consoles/Luminous.

On top of that Luminous had/has its own share of issues which we can see Tabata and co are working through.

It's part of why Nomura is using UE4 for KH3 and FFVIIR, on top of actually having staff for those projects with the Osaka team for KH3 and Cyberconnect2 for FFVIIR.

 

[Kerotan Frog]

I just found out the insomnia invasion from the e3 2013 trailer is NOT in the game... What the fuck. Ruined my day. Been on a media blackout.

What IS in this game now? I'm getting this horrible feeling it's just driving around that stupidly sexy car, killing animals in the forest, and making camp fires. Oh and the summon battles. Somebody save my hype and tell me I'm wrong.

 

[The Last One]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

I agree, Nomura is really great in presenting a new concept. this reminds me of his "Deep Dive" movie in KH I FM and the secret ending of KH II FM+.

 

[Ray Down]

I just found out the insomnia invasion from the e3 2013 trailer is NOT in the game... What the fuck. Ruined my day.

What IS in this game now? I'm getting this horrible feeling it's just driving around that stupidly sexy car, killing animals in the forest, and making camp fires. Oh and the summon battles. Somebody save my hype and tell me I'm wrong.

The invasion in the 2013 trailer was the invasion of Altissia not Insomnia which I'm pretty sure is still in.

 

[Ran rp]

What IS in this game now?

lol

Tabata's FFXV.

edit: oh what is IN the game now. ^ yeah that was Altissia.

 

[OrochiJR]

As someone who has only occasionally seen this dispute about the whole "Stella was robbed" thing I decided to brush up my knowledge of footage from Versus XIII. I watched this trailer compilation on youtube today, is there any trailer from Versus XIII (before the title change to XV) that is missing from this video?

Video in question.

 

[Ishida]

I just found out the insomnia invasion from the e3 2013 trailer is NOT in the game... What the fuck. Ruined my day. Been on a media blackout.

What IS in this game now? I'm getting this horrible feeling it's just driving around that stupidly sexy car, killing animals in the forest, and making camp fires. Oh and the summon battles. Somebody save my hype and tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

 

[DKHF]

On top of that Luminous had/has its own share of issues which we can see Tabata and co are working through.

It's part of why Nomura is using UE4 for KH3 and FFVIIR, on top of actually having staff for those projects with the Osaka team for KH3 and Cyberconnect2 for FFVIIR.

Yep, Luminous also has its own issues but even then I think Nomura honestly could have completed the multiple games he wanted to make if Square Enix didn't take him off the project.

On a different tangent and maybe it's a bullshit crackpot theory but I think part of the reason (not the only reason) he was taken off after E3 2013 is Square Enix saw the decreased sales/interest and damage the FFXIII series did to the brand and it was a trilogy. Nomura wanted to make probably a trilogy of XV games and Square was probably afraid of something similar to the XIII situation happening.

 

[Kerotan Frog]

The invasion in the 2013 trailer was the invasion of Altissia not Insomnia which I'm pretty sure is still in.

Oh thank God. If they got rid of that then what the hell is the point? Just make a movie. So happy it's still there.

 

[Ran rp]

Oh thank God. If they got rid of that then what the hell is the point? Just make a movie. So happy it's still there.

Just to be sure... you know it's the Insomnia invasion (seen in the Versus trailers) that's been removed and the Altissia invasion (Leviathan) that's still in (but most likely won't play out like shown in the cg), right?

 

[TheTux]

Yep, Luminous also has its own issues but even then I think Nomura honestly could have completed the multiple games he wanted to make if Square Enix didn't take him off the project.

On a different tangent and maybe it's a bullshit crackpot theory but I think part of the reason (not the only reason) he was taken off after E3 2013 is Square Enix saw the decreased sales/interest and damage the FFXIII series did to the brand and it was a trilogy. Nomura wanted to make probably a trilogy of XV games and Square was probably afraid of something similar to the XIII situation happening.

This is the kind of comments that I hate to read. How can a person who knows nothing about what's going on inside a project/company say that? Do you know something that we don't? Nomura can magically make people produce 10 times the content with 10 times the quality? You probably don't even know anything about game development yet you talk like Tabata (and basically anyone who's not called Testuya Nomura) is trash and completely useless.

Nomura is also working on two separate giant projects that are KH3 and FFVII Remake Part 1 so that's probably also one of the main reasons he was taken off FFXV.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Verendus, i mean no disrespect, but, i don't think you honestly know what your talking about in regards to this specific matter.

"In Nomura had planned better, SE would have gotten their shit together and actually let him develop the game that he was not able to work on for 2/10ths of the time it was in development limbo to begin with"?

What exactly was he supposed to plan according to you?


You can't just act like you know what would have happend while trying to shame other people for being bitter about how things actually went and then say Nomura is incompetent despite knowing otherwise. Its a bad argument and you should know better.

"If all the shit in Nomura's way in regards to developing Versus 13 didn't happen, then i know that Versus 13 still not would have shipped in a reasonable timeframe because i know Nomura is incompetent" is not an argument. You don't know anything about the situation yourself from what your saying.

Planning for a sequence of games is not a crime and was supposed to follow a schedule based on how he wanted to develop the first title, which never was able to be followed because of events out of that person's control, IE general SE fuckery that no one actually predicted at the time.

Those are the facts of the matter, and you or anyone else cannot make any conclusions whatsoever besides that.

 

[TheTux]

Verendus, i mean no disrespect, but, i don't think you honestly know what your talking about in regards to this specific matter.

"In Nomura had planned better, SE would have gotten their shit together and actually let him develop the game that he was not able to work on for 2/10ths of the time it was in development limbo to begin with"?

What exactly was he supposed to plan according to you?


You can't just act like you know what would have happend while trying to shame other people for being bitter about how things actually went and then say Nomura is incompetent despite knowing otherwise. Its a bad argument and you should know better.

"If all the shit in Nomura's way in regards to developing Versus 13 didn't happen, then i know that Versus 13 still not would have shipped in a reasonable timeframe because i know Nomura is incompetent" is not an argument. You don't know anything about the situation yourself from what your saying.

Planning for a sequence of games is not a crime and was supposed to follow a schedule based on how he wanted to develop the first title, which never was able to be followed because of events out of that person's control, IE general SE fuckery that no one actually predicted at the time.

Those are the facts of the matter, and you or anyone else cannot make any conclusions whatsoever besides that.

I believe he only meant to say that Nomura has made his mistakes too, not that it's 100% Nomura's fault. Of course there was no way Nomura could predirect FFXIV 1.0 and Crystal Tools.

 

[xxdoshiyarovexx]

i wasn't even talking about the games, just the color schemes. i don't know how you can look at them and say they're only slightly different. the tower in the first example is two different temperatures.

edit: my point is those were poor examples. what i've seen of insomnia in kingsglaive doesn't evoke the same moods.

I really wouldn't count on it at all.

The tone's different because the story direction changed and the art direction changed.Their similarities are surface level at best.

Even the scenes shown in Night time have a very different feel to them in the current game.

Its just very different.

I agree it's definitely different, and I am trying to explain why. I think it's the color/lighting. Which has mainly effected the mood and tone of the game which is also affecting people judgements.

1. Original versus screenshots 2. My paint over adopting the colors from versus 3. FFxv currently.

We are also comparing dramatic cinematics CGI rendered trailers to real time game footage which doesn't have fixed angles and thoughtfully placed compositions (which also helped create that dark tone and drama)

I am just going at this from a different perspective and bridging the gap as to why you cant see the versus assets buried inside the luminous engine/FFXV

 

[DKHF]

This is the kind of comments that I hate to read. How can a person who knows nothing about what's going on inside a project/company say that? Do you know something that we don't? Nomura can magically make people produce 10 times the content with 10 times the quality? You probably don't even know anything about game development yet you talk like Tabata (and basically anyone who's not called Testuya Nomura) is trash and completely useless.

Nomura is also working on two separate giant projects that are KH3 and FFVII Remake Part 1 so that's probably also one of the main reasons he was taken off FFXV.

Spoiler

I swear I feel like most people with Kingdom Hearts related avatars are children. Disclaimer: at the time of writing this post I have a Tabata avatar /s

How can I say that? I can say it based on his ability to lead the development of a lot of good games. I wasn't at all implying that Tabata could not make as much content as Nomura. I'm sure he could make multiple games as well if he were allowed to.

I have a great deal of respect for Tabata actually and respect his ability to direct such a huge and ambitious game as FFXV is. I respect how much he truly seems to care for making the best game possible. I was still hugely enthusiastic for the game for a long time after Tabata took over the project, I just don't care much for the game having played both demos and seeing what they have showcased of it in the last year and a half or so.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I believe he only meant to say that Nomura has made his mistakes too, not that it's 100% Nomura's fault. Of course there was no way Nomura could predirect FFXIV 1.0 and Crystal Tools.

Like what? In regards to Versus, what exactly was there to do in regards to how this whole mess turned out?

If he could not complete anywhere near as much of the project as he wanted, that's the long and short of it right?

He had the entire script of Versus 13 done in 2007 when they initially had given him the team that would eventually be off and on for years at a time, tons of concept art for environments and material, all of the character designs completed. I don't think there's much more to do besides actually make the game, and that depends on having staff to do that, which he generally did not have.

 

[GamingOblivion]

Which people inferred from one cinematic without any context. She took out a sword, she's so independent! You're being more shallow than the game devs right now.

Instead she's the whiny little love interest for Noctis to save. Oh wow so good

 

[Verendus]

Yeah, I think Verendus is referring to things like Nomura putting things in trailers when he still had no idea of what exactly his plan for the game was / the story was still unfinished, so some scenes were unlikely to ever be used. That helped to create a conflicting message about what Versus's deal was.

I'm referring to the fact that they have a very real development culture problem at Square Enix, and Nomura is part of that problem too. It takes tens of millions to develop a game. They have limited resource. Their development leaders need to operate with this in mind, and at times, they don't seem to. Square Enix made Final Fantasy XIII, and in the process hurt their brand with multiple sequels. Not because they wanted to, but because they pretty much had no choice at that stage due to the investment made. There were plenty of other problems that I don't feel need to be reiterated since everyone knows.

Nomura was creating Versus XIII through a trial and error method. He was pretty much testing what could be done, and what couldn't. As he did this, things kept getting bigger, and more ambitious, and the timing became problematic. Now, he did kind of have time to do this initially since the company was occupied elsewhere, but once they suggested to him to change the project to Final Fantasy XV, and he agreed to do this by the way, then it was time to focus. Moreso when it was decided it would be a current generation project. You can't be overly ambitious and plan things that may take so long to complete that it interferes with the company's plans. Development takes a long time.

Around that period, Hashimoto wanted to get FF7 Remake done. This was in 2013. They also have to factor in what they're going to do beyond XV. How can Square Enix devote that time and money to a project that could take a decade, if not more, to complete the way Nomura envisioned? What happens to XVI in that scenario? Since it's very unlikely the entire XV project would finish before that game is done? What happens if you run into problems with the subsequent XV development, or things get delayed on that end?

You have a real problem there from a business point of view. That's not even taking into account the fact that XV releases, doesn't light the world on fire, and the sequels/expansions have diminishing returns that aren't worth it. They experienced that problem with FFXIII. This part is very much Nomura's fault. He didn't have a clear direction for the game, and kept letting things get bigger and bigger, instead of reigning things in, and getting them done. It's also SE's fault for allowing things to get to that stage rather than getting things in order. Fortunately, as is apparent, they didn't wait too long to fix things this time.

Their leadership made the smart move, and put him on FF7 Remake, while FFXV is getting finished, and FFXVI is able to progress. That's three big games, rather then spending an entire generation with FFXV and it's "World of the Versus Epic" or whatever it was supposed to be.

 

[Slater]

Instead she's the whiny little love interest for Noctis to save. Oh wow so good

Whiny? She literally has never complained about anything anytime she's ever been shown on screen

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

I'm referring to the fact that they have a very real development culture problem at Square Enix, and Nomura is part of that problem too. It takes tens of millions to develop a game. They have limited resource. Their development leaders need to operate with this in mind, and at times, they don't seem to. Square Enix made Final Fantasy XIII, and in the process hurt their brand with multiple sequels. Not because they wanted to, but because they pretty much had no choice at that stage due to the investment made. There were plenty of other problems that I don't feel need to be reiterated since everyone knows.

Nomura was creating Versus XIII through a trial and error method. He was pretty much testing what could be done, and what couldn't. As he did this, things kept getting bigger, and more ambitious, and the timing became problematic. Now, he did kind of have time to do this initially since the company was occupied elsewhere, but once they suggested to him to change the project to Final Fantasy XV, and he agreed to do this by the way, then it was time to focus. Moreso when it was decided it would be a current generation project. You can't be overly ambitious and plan things that may take so long to complete that it interferes with the company's plans. Development takes a long time.

Around that period, Hashimoto wanted to get FF7 Remake done. This was in 2013. They also have to factor in what they're going to do beyond XV. How can Square Enix devote that time and money to a project that could take a decade, if not more, to complete the way Nomura envisioned? What happens to XVI in that scenario? Since it's very unlikely the entire XV project would finish before that game is done? What happens if you run into problems with the subsequent XV development, or things get delayed on that end?

You have a real problem there from a business point of view. That's not even taking into account the fact that XV releases, doesn't light the world on fire, and the sequels have diminishing returns that aren't worth it. They experienced that problem with FFXIII. This part is very much Nomura's fault. He didn't have a clear direction for the game, and kept letting things get bigger and bigger, instead of reigning things in, and getting them done.

Their leadership made the smart move, and put him on FF7 Remake, while FFXV is getting finished, and FFXVI is able to progress. That's three big games, rather then spending an entire generation with FFXV and it's "World of the Versus Epic" or whatever it was supposed to be.

Good post.

Thank you very much for summing things up so nicely.

It's pretty clear at this point that while we can fantasize all we like - Versus XIII in its original form was most likely never going to happen.

 

[EatinOlives]

Instead she's the whiny little love interest for Noctis to save. Oh wow so good

Are you talking about Luna? Because that's specifically didn't write her as a damsel.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

.I love everything about this post

 

[TheTux]

How can I say that? I can say it based on his ability to lead the development of many well received games. I wasn't at all implying that Tabata could not make as much content as Nomura. I'm sure he could make multiple games as well if he were allowed to.

I have a great deal of respect for Tabata actually and respect his ability to direct such a huge and ambitious game as FFXV is. I was still hugely enthusiastic for the game for a long time after Tabata took over the project, I just don't care much for the game having played both demos and seeing what they have showcased of it in the last year and a half or so.

Still, how can you say that without knowthing anything about this specific project, you can't simply say "Nomura is a super-smart guy which means he can complete multiple games while Tabata can't even finish one".

And let's be honest Nomura hadn't developed a AAA title for over a generation so you can't really say that no mistakes would have been made.

Like what? In regards to Versus, what exactly was there to do in regards to how this whole mess turned out?

As I said I'd rather not give random answers when I don't know the details, I don't know about the mistakes and the decisions that were made.

If he could not complete anywhere near as much of the project as he wanted, that's the long and short of it right?

Maybe yes, maybe not, everyone in the history of the FINAL FANTASY series had to work with limitation and make only what was possible at the time but I say again: I don't know the details.

He had the entire script of Versus 13 done in 2007 when they initially had given him the team that would eventually be off and on for years at a time, tons of concept art for environments and material, all of the character designs completed. I don't think there's much more to do besides actually make the game, and that depends on having staff to do that, which he generally did not have.

I honestly doubt that's true lol, if I'm not mistaken Stella hasn't even been revealed in 2007 and after many years Nomura said that he didn't really like the original character (Stella) he created and that he reworked her somehow so changes were made. Maybe later I'll make some quick Google search and update this post with sources.

At times I feel like "Can't we guys just move on from all this Nomura nonsense?", in the end we don't really know what happened yet and can only speculate.

 

[Ran rp]

Are you talking about Luna? Because that's specifically didn't write her as a damsel.

I dunno. What I'm reading in the Kingsglaive thread suggests she is. Maybe she's different in the game.

 

[Kerotan Frog]

Just to be sure... you know it's the Insomnia invasion (seen in the Versus trailers) that's been removed and the Altissia invasion (Leviathan) that's still in (but most likely won't play out like shown in the cg), right?

Yeah I think I understand the difference now. Forgot all about Altissia. Just glad we get to play the crazy leviathan sequence. Will we still have the scene of Noctis stepping out to the stairs with the shield of swords to see the crowd of troops in the square? It was so iconic.

 

[Inuhanyou]

FF15 was already being co developed by both Tabata and Nomura when it was announced, which we can assume was Nomura in a more co operative advisory role at that point already.

It made sense for them to take Nomura off of 15 and put him on FF7R and work on KH3, a which i assume the heads who put Tabata on 15 wanted from the start anyway, and kept Nomura on for while to keep up the semblance of continuation with the project after it was canned and restarted as 15.

My issue is that i still don't understand where the narrative is coming from that Versus itself was never going to happen(while mocking those who are disappointed and bitter about that) because of Nomura, even though one literally cannot prove that at all

The claim that Versus as Nomura first wanted it would never have worked, even had SE gotten their shit together and given him a team for any significant amount of time to complete is generally not something that could even be quantified to state with any measure of confidence.

..

Nomura himself said that he and Nojima had already completed the script at that time. It was only after 15 was in production did Nomura say that he changed her facial appearance to suit 15. I don't know where you got the idea that he didn't like the character herself, but its wrong or else he would not have included her.

You have to know about basic facts of the project guy, your trying to argue a side without knowing any of the details.

 

[DKHF]

Still, how can you say that without knowthing anything about this specific project, you can't simply say "Nomura is a super-smart guy which means he can complete multiple games while Tabata can't even finish one".

And let's be honest Nomura hadn't developed a AAA title for over a generation so you can't really say that no mistakes would have been made.

You're selectively ignoring part of what I posted. I straight up said I also believe that Tabata could make multiple games if he was allowed to as well.

No where did I say no mistakes would have been made, I just believe that he could have made the games if he were allowed to/ SE higher ups/Hashimoto/whoever didn't step in and pull him off after the re-reveal based on his history outside of XV and the multiple external factors that hurt its development.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

FF15 was already being co developed by both Tabata and Nomura when it was announced, which we can assume was Nomura in a more co operative advisory role at that point already.

It made sense for them to take Nomura off of 15 and put him on FF7R and work on KH3, a which i assume the heads who put Tabata on 15 wanted from the start anyway, and kept Nomura on for while to keep up the semblance of continuation with the project after it was canned and restarted as 15.

My issue is that i still don't understand where the narrative is coming from that Versus itself was never going to happen(while mocking those who are disappointed and bitter about that) because of Nomura, even though one literally cannot prove that at all

The claim that Versus as Nomura first wanted it would never have worked, even had SE gotten their shit together and given him a team for any significant amount of time to complete is generally not something that could even be quantified to state with any measure of confidence.

On the Same token one can not prove that Nomura comes out looking like a angel in this situation either, he gets put on a pedestal when this is brought up when none of us truly know what happened.

 

[Ran rp]

Yeah I think I understand the difference now. Forgot all about Altissia. Just glad we get to play the crazy leviathan sequence. Will we still have the scene of Noctis stepping out to the stairs with the shield of swords to see the crowd of troops in the square? It was so iconic.

With the changes, I don't think so.

 

[TheGreatLugia]

FF15 was already being co developed by both Tabata and Nomura when it was announced, which we can assume was Nomura in a more co operative advisory role at that point already.

It made sense for them to take Nomura off of 15 and put him on FF7R and work on KH3, a which i assume the heads who put Tabata on 15 wanted from the start anyway, and kept Nomura on for while to keep up the semblance of continuation with the project after it was canned and restarted as 15.

Nomura was still the primary director of FFXV for about its first 1.5 years of development (assuming FFXV entered development in Summer 2012 when Versus XIII was reported to be cancelled). During this time period, Nomura still seemed to have control of the project. That's why the E3 2013 trailer had the World of Versus tagline, and Nomura openly talked about FFXV having sequels. FFXV didn't become a single game until Tabata's promotion to director. That was also when Square decided to make Kingsglaive.

 

[Akainu]

words words words.

What a verbose shit post "if only nomura planned better around square's failings" you can't be serious? It's like you want to acknowledge square messing up but just throw nomura under the bus anyway.

 

[HeelPower]

This "Nomura hasn't shipped a console AAA game in ages" is absolute nonsense.

Let's think again how many AAA console games did Tabata ever launch ?
Yeah.The answer is none! They were all middling PSP games!

Nomura has a much more impressive track record,having launched the KH franchise.

People aren't mad or misguided when they show a preference to Nomura's hypothetical FFXV/Versus direction.