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[Inuhanyou]

On the Same token one can not prove that Nomura comes out looking like a angel in this situation either, he gets put on a pedestal when this is brought up when none of us truly know what happened.

Who puts Nomura on a pedestal? He didn't get to make the game he wanted and the things that people did see were more interesting than what we got in the opinion of some specific people.

Nobody thinks Nomura is stain free, just that he had nothing to do with the Versus failure and that some people wish they could have gotten that game he was originally making.

I don't think that's evangelizing, just stating the reality of the situation and regrets.

I don't think Tabata should get any shit, but i don't see how giving Nomura shit is right either.

 

[Koozek]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

Preach.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Who puts Nomura on a pedestal? He didn't get to make the game he wanted and the things that people did see were more interesting than what we got in the opinion of some specific people.

Nobody thinks Nomura is stain free, just that he had nothing to do with the Versus failure and that some people wish they could have gotten that game he was originally making.

I don't think that's evangelizing, just stating the reality of the situation and regrets.

I don't think Tabata should get any shit, but i don't see how giving Nomura shit is right either.

No one knows the reality of the situation that's the problem. And your right Tabata shouldn't get shit but he sure enough gets it way more than Nomura does for being put on someone else's project with an insane amount of expectations because of concepts that were shown

 

[Kerotan Frog]

With the changes, I don't think so.

Damn... That blows.

That's prob the one scene I've wanted to play for about 10 years. The other one being the fight with Stella on the road, but we knew that one was long gone.

Thanks for the clarification though. I'm not as bummed out anymore at least.

 

[TheTux]

This "Nomura hasn't shipped a console AAA game in ages" is absolute nonsense.

Let's think again how many AAA console games did Tabata ever launch ?
Yeah.The answer is none! They were all middling PSP games!

Nomura has a much more impressive track record,having launched the KH franchise.

People aren't mad or misguided when they show a preference to Nomura's hypothetical FFXV/Versus direction.

A few posts later he clarified what he meant, it's more about Square Enix's internal development culture if I understood correctly.

 

[artsi]

I'm referring to the fact that they have a very real development culture problem at Square Enix, and Nomura is part of that problem too. It takes tens of millions to develop a game. They have limited resource. Their development leaders need to operate with this in mind, and at times, they don't seem to. Square Enix made Final Fantasy XIII, and in the process hurt their brand with multiple sequels. Not because they wanted to, but because they pretty much had no choice at that stage due to the investment made. There were plenty of other problems that I don't feel need to be reiterated since everyone knows.

Nomura was creating Versus XIII through a trial and error method. He was pretty much testing what could be done, and what couldn't. As he did this, things kept getting bigger, and more ambitious, and the timing became problematic. Now, he did kind of have time to do this initially since the company was occupied elsewhere, but once they suggested to him to change the project to Final Fantasy XV, and he agreed to do this by the way, then it was time to focus. Moreso when it was decided it would be a current generation project. You can't be overly ambitious and plan things that may take so long to complete that it interferes with the company's plans. Development takes a long time.

Around that period, Hashimoto wanted to get FF7 Remake done. This was in 2013. They also have to factor in what they're going to do beyond XV. How can Square Enix devote that time and money to a project that could take a decade, if not more, to complete the way Nomura envisioned? What happens to XVI in that scenario? Since it's very unlikely the entire XV project would finish before that game is done? What happens if you run into problems with the subsequent XV development, or things get delayed on that end?

You have a real problem there from a business point of view. That's not even taking into account the fact that XV releases, doesn't light the world on fire, and the sequels/expansions have diminishing returns that aren't worth it. They experienced that problem with FFXIII. This part is very much Nomura's fault. He didn't have a clear direction for the game, and kept letting things get bigger and bigger, instead of reigning things in, and getting them done. It's also SE's fault for allowing things to get to that stage rather than getting things in order. Fortunately, as is apparent, they didn't wait too long to fix things this time.

Their leadership made the smart move, and put him on FF7 Remake, while FFXV is getting finished, and FFXVI is able to progress. That's three big games, rather then spending an entire generation with FFXV and it's "World of the Versus Epic" or whatever it was supposed to be.

No reason to doubt any of this, man's been too right with too many things. Interesting stuff, though a lot of it was expected.

 

[Koozek]

Oh thank God. If they got rid of that then what the hell is the point? Just make a movie. So happy it's still there.

Lol, in fact they did make a movie called Kingsglaive about the Insomnia invasion from Versus' 2011 trailer, which was cut out of FFXV, in case you missed it. The Altissia invasion from the E3 2013 trailer is still in the game.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Nomura was still the primary director of FFXV for about its first 1.5 years of development (assuming FFXV entered development in Summer 2012 when Versus XIII was reported to be cancelled). During this time period, Nomura still seemed to have control of the project. That's why the E3 2013 trailer had the World of Versus tagline, and Nomura openly talked about FFXV having sequels. FFXV didn't become a single game until Tabata's promotion to director. That was also when Square decided to make Kingsglaive.

And while true, that is not the issue i'm talking about right now. He wanted to continue on with the Versus project as 15, and the higher ups didn't want to, hence his ejection from the project, and the tasking of Tabata with making the game work as one single installment. That is not something to shame Nomura for.

And its generally nothing to do with insinuating that he was incompetent while working on Versus 13.

To the FF15 fans who want to support the current game: you don't have to shit on nomura and put in falsehoods about the previous project like he got taken out cause he could not direct properly to do that. That's not helping the Versus fans shut up about Versus, your triggering them.

 

[Akainu]

On the Same token one can not prove that Nomura comes out looking like a angel in this situation either, he gets put on a pedestal when this is brought up when none of us truly know what happened.

Holy crap. That nomura was no angel. This must be the first time i've seen this used outside of police abuse arguments. *sad laugh*

 

[Ishida]

Once again, Verendus telling it like it is.

 

[Inuhanyou]

No reason to doubt any of this, man's been too right with too many things. Interesting stuff, though a lot of it was expected.

Verendus is not an insider of square enix.

 

[TheTux]

And while true, that is not the issue i'm talking about right now. He wanted to continue on with the Versus project as 15, and the higher ups didn't want to, hence his ejection from the project, and the tasking of Tabata with making the game work as one single installment. That is not something to shame Nomura for.

I don't think anyone is shaming Nomura, if the company decided to place him director of KH3 and FFVII Remake it is evident that a lot of people believe in his skills.

And its generally nothing to do with insinuating that he was incompetent while working on Versus 13.

To be honest I never had the impression that people talked badly about Nomura or called him an incompetent, quite the opposite in fact. Have you got that impression?

To the FF15 fans who want to support the current game: you don't have to shit on nomura and put in falsehoods about the previous project like he got taken out cause he could not direct properly to do that. That's not helping the Versus fans shut up about Versus, your triggering them.

True, and the same should be true for Versus fans, if the goal of a post is to write "Versus XIII is better and/or XV is garbage" then the author of that post may as well leave the thread.

Verendus is not an insider of square enix.

He probably isn't but he has proven in the past that he knows facts that happen inside the company. Just wanted to clarify that he's not just a random user who posts his ideas as objective truth.

 

[jimmypython]

This "Nomura hasn't shipped a console AAA game in ages" is absolute nonsense.

Let's think again how many AAA console games did Tabata ever launch ?
Yeah.The answer is none! They were all middling PSP games!

Nomura has a much more impressive track record,having launched the KH franchise.

People aren't mad or misguided when they show a preference to Nomura's hypothetical FFXV/Versus direction.

THIS!

Maybe it was a good business move to replace Nomura with someone, as per Nomura's lack of modern (aka post-PS2) AAA game dev experience. They needed someone who's equivalent to FF14's Yoshida. Based on his track record and what has been shown so far, Tabata is certainly no such talent. The man might have dedication and the ability to manage a group, but certainly is not as good in directing comparing to Nomura. That's why people still can't move on from Versus - simply because what Tabata has done didn't catch fan's eyes.

 

[Akainu]

A few posts later he clarified what he meant, it's more about Square Enix's internal development culture if I understood correctly.

And it's still just as bad as the first.

Once again, Verendus telling it like it is.

Or how you want it to be. Enjoy xv man you deserve it.

 

[Akainu]

.my bad on a ps4 hard to keep track of things

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I'm referring to the fact that they have a very real development culture problem at Square Enix, .

I couldnt help but notice the word "have" and not "had", do you still think they have big problems, or do you think they simply arent making the best use of their developers/IPs?

 

[Ishida]

And it's still just as bad as the first.



Or how you want it to be. Enjoy xv man you deserve it.

Well, if there is someone "in the know" in this thread, the closest one would be Verendus. ¯\_(&#12484_/

 

[artsi]

Verendus is not an insider of square enix.

But considering what he's known he's likely not just pulling stuff out from his arse either when he rarely decides to comment to stuff in a non-cryptic way.

And it's not too far fetched that someone with relations to maybe *cough* Sony *cough* would know what's going on with the development of SE's biggest games.

 

[Setsu00]

Well, if there is someone "in the know" in this thread, the closest one would be Verendus. ¯\_(&#12484_/

To be fair, you would be able to puzzle that story together without insider knowledge.

 

[Verendus]

And while true, that is not the issue i'm talking about right now. He wanted to continue on with the Versus project as 15, and the higher ups didn't want to, hence his ejection from the project, and the tasking of Tabata with making the game work as one single installment. That is not something to shame Nomura for.

And its generally nothing to do with insinuating that he was incompetent while working on Versus 13.

To the FF15 fans who want to support the current game: you don't have to shit on nomura and put in falsehoods about the previous project like he got taken out cause he could not direct properly to do that. That's not helping the Versus fans shut up about Versus, your triggering them.

No one is shaming him, so I'm not sure why're you so defensive. I've not referred to the time period prior to 2011. I've been pretty clear of where I feel SE failed, and where I feel Nomura failed.

It's a game designer's responsibility to plan and deliver projects that are sensible, and are in line with company plans. Allowing things to get away from you while you plan something that could take considerable amount of time and resource to complete, especially considering the opportunity cost in this scenario, is a pretty big mistake. He had his chance, the company decided it wasn't going to be suitable, and they took actions to get it done in a way they thought made more sense. He wasn't removed from the project in 2011 or 2012. He agreed to the project becoming Final Fantasy XV. He was removed later once the project had already been reannounced. Naturally, there's something wrong here, no? Or did Square Enix devise this cunning plan to give themselves a huge headache?

For all the grief Versus, or what really feels like Nomura, fans throw in the direction of Tabata and his team for making changes, they seem to ignore that some of these changes would've likely happened regardless due to the title being a mainline entry now. This would happen whether it was under Nomura or Tabata's control. Most of the other changes occurring are pretty clearly because Square Enix doesn't have time to spend another decade on one entry, and Tabata is focused on delivering one big game to get it done the best he can. If not, then they could've allowed Nomura to continue.

People are clinging to ideas. (Many of which are still apparently present in XV.) And it's easy to envision ideas as being greater than what they may end up being because execution is what ultimately matters. Most of the aggravation comes from the story point of view too with the whole "dark" and "mature" and "Stella was so interesting" when Nomura's claim to fame is Kingdom Hearts which is more juvenile than any Final Fantasy game in that aspect. He has many strengths, but that certainly isn't one of them in my eyes. And neither Nomura or Tabata has developed on HD platforms before so they're both in the same boat in that regard.

Is the company responsible for everything bad now? Game designer's don't have a responsibility to have a clear direction for their projects that they can deliver in a reasonable timeframe? Although, as I mentioned, I think part of that is SE's fault in the first place as they should've communicated all of this in the initial transition so both parties have a clear understanding of what needs to be done, by when, and how. Then again, it's also possible they did communicate this to him. Regardless, there's no bad guy in my eyes. It's just reality, and many folks seem to have a tough time coming to grips with it even though it's been years now.

I definitely don't think SE made a wrong move. It's a smart move. They need to get their development pipeline more efficient, and as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Inuhanyou]

But considering what he's known he's likely not just pulling stuff out from his arse either when he rarely decides to comment to stuff in a non-cryptic way.

And it's not too far fetched that someone with relations to maybe *cough* Sony *cough* would know what's going on with the development of SE's biggest games.

I know who Verendus proports to be even though he was not vetted, ive been here a while.

I'm saying, he has no more inside info about what happens with Versus 13 to 15 switch than any of us regardless of where he works at Sony. Kagari would know far more than him, and she's just a journalist.

 

[Verendus]

Lol, in fact they did make a movie called Kingsglaive about the Insomnia invasion from Versus' 2011 trailer, which was cut out of FFXV, in case you missed it. The Altissia invasion from the E3 2013 trailer is still in the game.

Did you see how the main character approaches Stella as she's standing in the moonlight, and she's suddenly taken control of and is forced to fight him in a tragic duel? I could feel the goosebumps as I saw the scene play out in front of me.

Oh wait, I forgot that didn't happen because she's dead.

 

[SweetTeddie]

Nomura gave us the shit show that was the Kingdom Hearts saga and it's endless spinoffs. He seems attracted to creating these huge universes that need multiple games to fully realize it. If he was going to do that with Versus, then SE made a good decision taking him off the project.

 

[TheTux]

I know who Verendus proports to be even though he was not vetted, ive been here a while.

I'm saying, he has no more inside info about what happens with Versus 13 to 15 switch than any of us regardless of where he works at Sony. Kagari would know far more than him, and she's just a journalist.

To be honest he probably does, but that's not really the point of this conversation, is it?

 

[Ran rp]

Lol, in fact they did make a movie called Kingsglaive about the Insomnia invasion from Versus' 2011 trailer, which was cut out of FFXV, in case you missed it. The Altissia invasion from the E3 2013 trailer is still in the game.

Did you see how the main character approaches Stella as she's standing in the moonlight, and she's suddenly taken control of and is forced to fight him in a tragic duel? I could feel the goosebumps as I saw the scene play out in front of me.

Oh wait, I forgot that didn't happen because she's dead.

... . . ?

 

[BlueTsunami]

Did you see how the main character approaches Stella as she's standing in the moonlight, and she's suddenly taken control of and is forced to fight him in a tragic duel? I could feel the goosebumps as I saw the scene play out in front of me.

Oh wait, I forgot that didn't happen because she's dead.

Hahahaha

 

[Koozek]

Kagari killed Versus.

 

[TheTux]

Did you see how the main character approaches Stella as she's standing in the moonlight, and she's suddenly taken control of and is forced to fight him in a tragic duel? I could feel the goosebumps as I saw the scene play out in front of me.

Oh wait, I forgot that didn't happen because she's dead.

I went from "WTF IS THIS SPOILER DOESN'T HE KNOW ABOUT SPOILER TAGS!?" to "Oh... I see... lol".

 

[Edge_Maverick]

Nomura's XV could have been something special for sure, the concepts were great, nice tone, art, etc. I'd love to play it. But I really doubt anyone should take the risk and accept that being episodic was the best way to deliver it. That's the big problem.

For me, if Nomura was still the director, he would create just one big/ambitious game. It begins here and it ends there. No "to be continued" BS after credits. If, and only "IF" that game is somehow super well received and people demand more of that world, then the team could consider future developments (that being a sequel, a prequel or even a movie a la Advent Children).

At the same time, it all must make sense financially, because as Verendus just said: no, the company does not have unlimited money/resources/time. Anyone who decides to develop a big game like FFXV must know this. There are some limits.

I can totally see this whole "A World of Versus Epic" thing messing with XVI's plan if S-E decided to proceed with Nomura's original idea to create multiple XV games. Especially if something went wrong during production and it took longer than expected.

What about the worst case scenario? XV-1 flops or is super divisive like XIII. What happens next? Should S-E proceed with the plan and hope for a miracle with XV-2? And what about future projects? We saw this story before. And I bet most of us don't want another Lightning-Saga scenario. (there were more problems last gen, but you get the idea)

Did S-E make a bunch of terrible decisions last gen? Hell yes. Should Nomura be blamed for Versus' demise? Hell no. However, S-E did the right thing by turning Versus on XV (it's their fault things came to this of course) and then making it just one game. And for Nomura, we'll see if the episodic nature works well with VII Remake. At least this is not an "unproven" game, we know the story, the characters, the world. VII is still "the" big deal when it comes to Square's legacy and I believe Nomura can deliver something truly great.

Now, if they mess the first part somehow... Please be excited for whatever happens next ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Burbeting]

I can only assume they wanted to evade the possibility where XV would turn into another Lightning saga, where the first game would be divisive, and then XV sequel sales would suffer from it. Assuming Nomura did want to make a trilogy of XV/Versus games with connecting plot, it would be even more damning, since the plot would most likely feel unfinished after just one game. So it does make sense to make the whole story into one game, in the end.

This is all just assumptions, though.

 

[.JayZii]

What a verbose shit post "if only nomura planned better around square's failings" you can't be serious? It's like you want to acknowledge square messing up but just throw nomura under the bus anyway.

It's almost like Square's development culture as a whole was a mess, and Nomura was a contributor to that mess.

 

[artsi]

I know who Verendus proports to be even though he was not vetted, ive been here a while.

I'm saying, he has no more inside info about what happens with Versus 13 to 15 switch than any of us regardless of where he works at Sony. Kagari would know far more than him, and she's just a journalist.

Well I'm not going to even enter an argument if Sony or Kagari have closer connections to SE development teams, not really the subject here, so let's just disagree

I'm just saying that Verendus is not someone I'd expect making up BS about a subject like this when he takes his time to write a serious post for once.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I can only assume they wanted to evade the possibility where XV would turn into another Lightning saga, where the first game would be divisive, and then XV sequel sales would suffer from it. Assuming Nomura did want to make a trilogy of XV/Versus games with connecting plot, it would be even more damning, since the plot would most likely feel unfinished after just one game. So it does make sense to make the whole story into one game, in the end.

This is all just assumptions, though.

I mean if game one was just based on the invasion and it ended on a grim note frankly that would've been fantastic.. But not everyone thinks the same. SE couldn't take the gamble after the XIII disaster.

 

[sappyday]

I mean if game one was just based on the invasion and it ended on a grim note frankly that would've been fantastic.. But not everyone thinks the same. SE couldn't take the gamble after the XIII disaster.

Versus XIII wasn't just going to be the invasion. We know this just cause we saw footage of open areas in the 2011 trailer.


Sources have said (mainly leakers) that the 3 games would have been this

First one being Noctis saving Stella from the empire
Second one being Noctis defeating the empire and reclaiming his throne
Third one being Noctis against the gods.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

I mean if game one was just based on the invasion and it ended on a grim note frankly that would've been fantastic.. But not everyone thinks the same. SE couldn't take the gamble after the XIII disaster.

For me that would have been horrific. I'd have been down with Versus XIII having a long intro section taking place during the invasion, but I'd be hugely disappointed to get no exploration in the first title. Maybe it's just the way I'm envisioning it, but all I can think of is a really long heavily funneled game that would feel like FFXIII with Gran Pulse taken out. I can't really see any other way to make it work with the invasion going on.

Versus XIII wasn't just going to be the invasion. We know this just cause we saw footage of open areas in the 2011 trailer.


Sources have said (mainly leakers) that the 3 games would have been this

First one being you saving Stella from the empire
Second one being you defeating the empire and reclaiming your throne
Third one being Noctis against the gods.

And that reminds me of Lightning Returns. I guess I may be in the minority but I just don't feel like FF games are the sort of thing that need sequels. One and done then move onto the next just feels right to me. Having said that though, I've not really played a direct FF sequel that I could say beat the original in every single way, even if it did some things better, so maybe I could be swayed by executing it well.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Nomura's XV could have been something special for sure, the concepts were great, nice tone, art, etc. I'd love to play it. But I really doubt anyone should take the risk and accept that being episodic was the best way to deliver it. That's the big problem.

For me, if Nomura was still the director, he would create just one big/ambitious game. It begins here and it ends there. No "to be continued" BS after credits. If, and only "IF" that game is somehow super well received and people demand more of that world, then the team could consider future developments (that being a sequel, a prequel or even a movie a la Advent Children).

At the same time, it all must make sense financially, because as Verendus just said: no, the company does not have unlimited money/resources/time. Anyone who decides to develop a big game like FFXV must know this. There are some limits.

I can totally see this whole "A World of Versus Epic" thing messing with XVI's plan if S-E decided to proceed with Nomura's original idea to create multiple XV games. Especially if something went wrong during production and it took longer than expected.

What about the worst case scenario? XV-1 flops or is super divisive like XIII. What happens next? Should S-E proceed with the plan and hope for a miracle with XV-2? And what about future projects? We saw this story before. And I bet most of us don't want another Lightning-Saga scenario. (there were more problems last gen, but you get the idea)

Did S-E make a bunch of terrible decisions last gen? Hell yes. Should Nomura be blamed for Versus' demise? Hell no. However, S-E did the right thing by turning Versus on XV (it's their fault things came to this of course) and then making it just one game. And for Nomura, we'll see if the episodic nature works well with VII Remake. At least this is not an "unproven" game, we know the story, the characters, the world. VII is still "the" big deal when it comes to Square's legacy and I believe Nomura can deliver something truly great.

I fully agree with this sentiment. My issue is only when people claim things that we know are categorically false just to make a narrative that is incorrect.

Yes, some people are dehyped about 15, yes some people still consider Versus the second coming of christ regardless of how it actually would have turned out and unfairly slag on Tabata for ruining the pure vision of a game it no longer is claiming to be, yes, some people just plain liked the original concept they saw of Versus better than what we're seeing of 15. People have opinions.

But what should not happen is slagging on one director or the other for things they have no control over.

Tabata isn't happy with this arrangement either as we sure as hell can tell he'd rather be working on something of his own, and i'm sure Nomura was not happy from being taken away from Versus all those years and then ejected from what it became.

I'm sure they both have regrets, but neither of them are at fault for what is going on now, SE's general incompetence is. From the engine choice of 15 giving less than stellar results on PS4 and, to the engine issues last gen, to the 13 mess, to the 14.1 mess, the the decision to repurpose Versus as 15.

Priorities have to be put in place somewhere, and sometimes, developers just do what they are told even if it isn't loved by fans.

Well I'm not going to even enter an argument if Sony or Kagari have closer connections to SE development teams, not really the subject here, so let's just disagree

I'm just saying that Verendus is not someone I'd expect making up BS about a subject like this when he takes his time to write a serious post for once.

He doesn't have to make up BS to give his opinion on what he thinks the situation is and what the fans are like for this situation, but that also doesn't mean his opinion is more valid or based on insider info that we aren't privy to.

 

[Exentryk]

FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE |OT| FINAL FANTASY Versus VII
FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE |OT| The (real) Versus Epic

I like these.

 

[Nerokis]

Who puts Nomura on a pedestal? He didn't get to make the game he wanted and the things that people did see were more interesting than what we got in the opinion of some specific people.

Nobody thinks Nomura is stain free, just that he had nothing to do with the Versus failure and that some people wish they could have gotten that game he was originally making.

I don't think that's evangelizing, just stating the reality of the situation and regrets.

I don't think Tabata should get any shit, but i don't see how giving Nomura shit is right either.

Saying Nomura had nothing to do with Versus XIII's failure is being pretty generous. Nobody has a good enough sense of the situation to accurately distribute blame, but it's quite a stretch to claim the person who was in charge of the project deserves none at all. Nomura certainly dealt with a lot of unique challenges, but Versus XIII's development being so vulnerable to disruption (FFXIII, FFXIV, etc.) implies SE never had much faith in how things were going in the first place. It doesn't take much imagination to think Versus XIII's development problems partly came down to struggles in realizing Nomura's vision, his lack of adaptability in a difficult development environment, and other things along those lines.

In the end, all we know is that Nomura couldn't make the game happen, and this should far outweigh how "interesting" Versus XIII's marketing material seemed. FFXV is an actual thing, and there's no sense in being bitter that it went in a different direction than the thing that never was.

Now, I like Nomura quite a bit, and considering the overall environment at SE was not conducive to making big budget HD games, I'm more than willing to forgive him for this (vague) stain on his record. Can't pretend the Versus XIII situation doesn't reflect on him at all, though.

 

[Ydelnae]

Versus XIII wasn't just going to be the invasion. We know this just cause we saw footage of open areas in the 2011 trailer.


Sources have said (mainly leakers) that the 3 games would have been this

First one being Noctis saving Stella from the empire
Second one being Noctis defeating the empire and reclaiming his throne
Third one being Noctis against the gods.

This was said by someone who had information about the FFXV game, he didn't know anything else. The "Final Fantasy XVI isn't being working out yet because if XV does bad the series is dead", "Versus was these three games" and "Stella was cut early in development" stuff was fake.

Just because someone guessed something or had information about a certain detail doesn't mean that everything else is true. I am seeing a lot of posters taking that Versus trilogy plan as a fact, when in reality, it isn't.

 

[HerroRygar]

I fully agree with this sentiment. My issue is only when people claim things that we know are categorically false just to make a narrative that is incorrect.

Yes, some people are dehyped about 15, yes some people still consider Versus the second coming of christ regardless of how it actually would have turned out and unfairly slag on Tabata for ruining the pure vision of a game it no longer is claiming to be, yes, some people just plain liked the original concept they saw of Versus better than what we're seeing of 15. People have opinions.

But what should not happen is slagging on one director or the other for things they have no control over.

Tabata isn't happy with this arrangement either as we sure as hell can tell he'd rather be working on something of his own, and i'm sure Nomura was not happy from being taken away from Versus all those years and then ejected from what it became.

I'm sure they both have regrets, but neither of them are at fault for what is going on now, SE's general incompetence is. From the engine choice of 15 giving less than stellar results on PS4 and, to the engine issues last gen, to the 13 mess, to the 14.1 mess, the the decision to repurpose Versus as 15.

Priorities have to be put in place somewhere, and sometimes, developers just do what they are told even if it isn't loved by fans.



He doesn't have to make up BS to give his opinion on what he thinks the situation is and what the fans are like for this situation, but that also doesn't mean his opinion is more valid or based on insider info that we aren't privy to.

Ok, I think I get what you're getting at with the argument.

I can't speak for others, but at least for myself when I talk about Nomura having some hand in things, I don't attach that to words like "blame" or "bad" or "wrong", or whatever - it's just the way the situation shook out. My impression of Nomura is that he is kind of experimental, very creative, a perfectionist and not overly project-detail oriented - in other words, the consummate artist. These qualities may have been fine when Square had flagship development progressing OK and time to kill, but due to bad business decisions, bad press and poor internal technology they suddenly found themselves in a bad place: a faltering Final Fantasy brand with no new, high-budget, on-track games in the pipeline.

So now they have a conundrum. Nomura has this amazing vision, but it has been growing and morphing, and he wants to continue to play with it to make it the best thing it can be. Square needs a mainline Final Fantasy game ASAP, and they need somebody who can get shit done. So they bring in Tabata to be the doer, with the task of implementing something seeded with Nomura's vision.

This situation is unfortunate for both directors as has been said, but it's not about Nomura being shitty in some way. It's just that they have to cut their losses and do something, and they need somebody who can focus on a goal and deliver within tight constraints. Tabata is that guy, Nomura is not. So Nomura gets put on projects with longer timelines that have room to still be experimental and creative, which is where he does better anyway. It's not a punishment, it's a tactical decision to save the flagship brand. Sucks having his baby ripped away from him, just as it sucks for Tabata to get his chance to step up to the plate with somebody else's vision to carry, but yeah.

Anyway, that's my impression of things from what I've read, but obviously not being an employee of Square I have no idea. Perhaps things are way different.

 

[ULTROS!]

Business Division 3

• Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ - continuing updates & international version
• World of Final Fantasy - releasing in 2016
• Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue - releasing in 2016
• SaGa Scarlet Grace - releasing in 2016
• Kingdom Hearts III

Seems like they've got a lot of going in them than BD1 and BD2, heh.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Saying Nomura had nothing to do with Versus XIII's failure is being pretty generous. Nobody has a good enough sense of the situation to accurately distribute blame, but it's quite a stretch to claim the person who was in charge of the project deserves none at all. Nomura certainly dealt with a lot of unique challenges, but Versus XIII's development being so vulnerable to disruption (FFXIII, FFXIV, etc.) implies SE never had much faith in how things were going in the first place. It doesn't take much imagination to think Versus XIII's development problems partly came down to struggles in realizing Nomura's vision, his lack of adaptability in a difficult development environment, and other things along those lines.

In the end, all we know is that Nomura couldn't make the game happen, and this should far outweigh how "interesting" Versus XIII's marketing material seemed. FFXV is an actual thing, and there's no sense in being bitter that it went in a different direction than the thing that never was.

Now, I like Nomura quite a bit, and considering the overall environment at SE was not conducive to making big budget HD games, I'm more than willing to forgive him for this (vague) stain on his record. Can't pretend the Versus XIII situation doesn't reflect on him at all, though.

So your saying that because they fucked him over with other projects they deemed more important and took away his development staff for 14 1.0 and FF13 projects, it comes back to the 'Nomura was incompetent and can't manage projects" FUD again?

Your argument that because they kept taking staff away from him equals he wasn't making the game good enough is far more of a stretch than anything else considering what else was made by SE in the AAA space around the same time, that is to say, nothing in particular besides lightning.

He made multiple games in that time, just not console ones. Not having development staff has nothing to do with his directorial competency, or else they would not have put him on any projects afterward, or fired him.

It flies in the face of your argument to say that on one hand, while SE gives him the biggest project in the company with as many parts as he wants.

Ok, I think I get what you're getting at with the argument.

I can't speak for others, but at least for myself when I talk about Nomura having some hand in things, I don't attach that to words like "blame" or "bad" or "wrong", or whatever - it's just the way the situation shook out. My impression of Nomura is that he is kind of experimental, very creative, a perfectionist and not overly project-detail oriented - in other words, the consummate artist. These qualities may have been fine when Square had flagship development progressing OK and time to kill, but due to bad business decisions, bad press and poor internal technology they suddenly found themselves in a bad place: a faltering Final Fantasy brand with no new, high-budget, on-track games in the pipeline.

So now they have a conundrum. Nomura has this amazing vision, but it has been growing and morphing, and he wants to continue to play with it to make it the best thing it can be. Square needs a mainline Final Fantasy game ASAP, and they need somebody who can get shit done. So they bring in Tabata to be the doer, with the task of implementing something seeded with Nomura's vision.

This situation is unfortunate for both directors as has been said, but it's not about Nomura being shitty in some way. It's just that they have to cut their losses and do something, and they need somebody who can focus on a goal and deliver within tight constraints. Tabata is that guy, Nomura is not. So Nomura gets put on projects with longer timelines that have room to still be experimental and creative, which is where he does better anyway. It's not a punishment, it's a tactical decision to save the flagship brand. Sucks having his baby ripped away from him, just as it sucks for Tabata to get his chance to step up to the plate with somebody else's vision to carry, but yeah.

Anyway, that's my impression of things from what I've read, but obviously not being an employee of Square I have no idea. Perhaps things are way different.

You explained my opinions perfectly.

Tabata should not get shit for coming in and doing the best he can in a situation they put him in charge of, Nomura should not be dismissed saying he was incompetent or not doing things the best he could or what he could have made was going to be shit anyway.

But

that is not going to stop people who are bitter about Versus 13 not being able to be a thing from doing what they do.

I think it comes with the territory of SE's decision to use Versus assets for 15 out of the ashes, people who had an attachment for the Versus project will be constantly triggered by things(from personal experience) unless everyone just stops talking about it all at once, which will never happen.

What should not happen however, is using that as a springboard to attack Tabata's handling of the situation. You can criticize what FF15's end result is in a vacuum whether that be the story, characters, or graphics or gameplay, but Tabata should not be insulted for making the best in a bad situation that is the development mess of the Versus and 15 projects.

 

[Frumix]

Well I don't know if the 2 months delay is gonna make the game better, but it sure is gonna make these threads much, much crazier!

 

[JuanLatino]

i don't really see the fault in Nomura, but i also can understand why SE made this decision

I mean Nomura had to wait nearly a whole generation to finally work on his project - he/his team helping out on other projects (Crystal Tools Engine, FF13)....After FF13 released Nomura said: Now is the Time for Versus...but then the FF14 Fiasco happenend and again he and his team were the victims.

afaik there was an interview from 2009 where a member of versus team said, that they didn't really done anything in terms of development besides some trailer and concept arts.

i guess another Problem was the fact that Versus13 was a Spinnoff and not mainline title, which is why Nomuras Game didn't get the attention & focus of games like 13 and 14

Maybe thats the reason why Nomura agreed to make Versus a mainline Final fantasy Title?


to sum it up - If after 6 years its finally your turn to fullfill your Vision and Project, i can understand why Nomura wouldn't want to make compromises (since he had the script finished since 2007)

But again, from an financial perspective it was probably a good decision.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

The guidelines have been followed as best they can, and had Nomura planned things better, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. He hadn't developed a home console game in over a generation, and while that's largely the fault of Square Enix, it doesn't mean you plan for something that could take upwards of ten years to complete.

Big budget games are expensive, and the reality of modern development presents some very different challenges (that he's in the process of learning with FF7 right now). That he was allowed to run away with his "vision" reflects poorly on Square Enix since they never should've let him in the first place, but it also reflects poorly on him as a designer for not knowing his limits. You don't have an unlimited budget to do with as you please, and the company doesn't owe you one either.

Some fans just have a romanticized version of Versus when they barely saw anything of the greater game in the first place. There was enough there to give you an idea, but that's about it. That's why you end up with nebulous descriptors such as "the feel of things" and "the tone of things" where most of what they saw was pretty insignificant, and they've let their imaginations run wild with it all due to some good trailers and some brief explanations. Nomura is good at selling a concept, and that's largely what he did, but the reality of executing a concept means you can end up with quite a different result. Since it was his vision in the first place, the more passionate fans have a difficult time letting go of things, when if he was the one having to present changes, it likely wouldn't result in this kind of scrutiny.

Asking Tabata to follow guidelines or consult Nomura is also insulting since he's the one spending years of his life bringing the current game to life. Their team has been pretty straightforward about keeping as much as possible of the original plan in the new game, and it's pretty evident they've kept quite a fair amount, but this isn't Versus XIII. It's Final Fantasy XV, and they course corrected they way they feel is appropriate.

The martyring of Nomura is frankly stupid. He's about to take four years to deliver part one of a game that's going to end up less ambitious than another project that he was taken off which received a messier four years, in part thanks to him. There'll be plenty of opportunity to crucify Tabata if he delivers a less than stellar product, but at least those complaints will have merit.

Always appreciate your insight, hoping for the best.

Bahamut represent #team
Baleee dat.

 

[ULTROS!]

So the real problem of Versus/XV's development is SE's priorities at that time + Nomura's wild ambition?

Since Nomura has been assigned to KHIII and FFVIIR now, won't that cause also problems (see decade-long developments) due to his wild ambitions, not to mention these are two major games under his helm compared to FFXV?

Maybe not FFVIIR because there's a previously existing vision of that game 20 years ago and they're planning to stick to that vision, plus I believe another team is developing it?

 

[Inuhanyou]

So the real problem of Versus/XV's development is SE's priorities at that time + Nomura's wild ambition?

Since Nomura has been assigned to KHIII and FFVIIR now, won't that cause also problems (see decade-long developments) due to his wild ambitions, not to mention these are two major games under his helm compared to FFXV?

Maybe not FFVIIR because there's a previously existing vision of that game 20 years ago and they're planning to stick to that vision, plus I believe another team is developing it?

I think your putting too much stock into the assumption that Nomura's ambition ruins games and doesn't allow them to come out considering Versus is the only example.

RIght now, Nomura is working with a very competent team in CC2, in addition to another team comprised of SE devs to work on FF7R. its going to be big and bold, Nomura said he's not holding back just because its a remake of an established property, he's going in unrestrained with the intent to make something new out of the base.

On the other hand, he doesn't have to cobble together two engines like last gen with the ebony engine and the working parts of crystal tools like with Versus, he's got a proven engine with a modern toolset on his side that isn't in development when he's making it, and has tons of documentation from Epic to make it work.

So, i think he's got all the tools he needs now, no more interference.

 

[Ray Down]

So the real problem of Versus/XV's development is SE's priorities at that time + Nomura's wild ambition?

Since Nomura has been assigned to KHIII and FFVIIR now, won't that cause also problems (see decade-long developments) due to his wild ambitions, not to mention these are two major games under his helm compared to FFXV?

Maybe not FFVIIR because there's a previously existing vision of that game 20 years ago and they're planning to stick to that vision, plus I believe another team is developing it?

Other teams are working on it outside of SE, mainly Cyberconnect2 other weren't named.

I do wonder why Kitase isn't just directing the games, seems like he's just done with that life. Though I bet he's having a larger hand in this compared to other project he produced.

Then again maybe he should just direct since Guchi threw shade and called him a bad producer.

 

[TheGreatLugia]

Did you see how the main character approaches Stella as she's standing in the moonlight, and she's suddenly taken control of and is forced to fight him in a tragic duel? I could feel the goosebumps as I saw the scene play out in front of me.

Oh wait, I forgot that didn't happen because she's dead.

I saw it with my own eyes. Verendus killed Stella.

 

[ULTROS!]

I think your putting too much stock into the assumption that Nomura's ambition ruins games and doesn't allow them to come out considering Versus is the only example.

I don't believe Nomura's ambitions and visions ruins games. In fact it's his ambitions that made what SE is now. I personally think his visions are pretty good and despite the flak he gets here in GAF, you have to admit there are a lot of people attracted to his visions.

The issue is sometimes his visions are vague teasers (see KH1 secret ending and KH2 came out at 4-5 years after which is still a bit long, Versus XIII) and have potential to be overly ambitious, which can cause problems down the line (see how messed up KH's story is now). But who knows, maybe SE is at fault for possibly modifying his visions?

Other teams are working on it outside of SE, mainly Cyberconnect2 other weren't named.

I do wonder why Kitase isn't just directing the games, seems like he's just done with that life. Though I bet he's having a larger hand in this compared to other project he produced.

Kitase should really go back to directing if you ask me. He did direct FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX... And all of them had a clear vision from the get go.