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Nintendo Switch 2 will have the best upscaling technology of any consoles

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DeVeAn

Member
Same, the games will always be the main attraction. But even so I feel like the hardware definitely decreased my enjoyment of their games towards the end of Switch’s lifespan.

Even on past systems that were very weak, you could always count on Nintendo’s own games to run great. 8 years into the Switch’s life a lot Nintendos own games run like crap..

Would be nice if they actually had some future proofing in mind if they’re going to keep milking their products for 8+ years.
I vividly remember getting a Wii and Zelda at launch. Component cables weren't available for months and the picture quality was smeared so bad I couldn't play Zelda like that. Had to wait a month or so for the cables and it still wasn't great.
 

T4keD0wN

Member
How has nobody taken a native TAA screenshot of that satchel and compared the transformer model picture we have from nvidia against native yet? I think it might even be making things/detail up.
 

Ev1L AuRoN

Member
The real question here is, how much silicon space Nintendo would spare for Tensor Cores in order to run the DLSS algorithm. This space maybe is better spent in raster power considering that the SoC will be 15w max. IDK, DLSS isn't cheap.
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
The real question here is, how much silicon space Nintendo would spare for Tensor Cores in order to run the DLSS algorithm. This space maybe is better spent in raster power considering that the SoC will be 15w max. IDK, DLSS isn't cheap.

They would have to invest too much R&D for Nvidia to strip away tensor cores that are so embedded into the last 4 generations of SMs that they're too poor to afford it.

Docked the rumored specs on Ampere SMs would give 48 tensor cores and give Switch 2 roughly 100~125 TOPs, which is more than the best of Turing which was 89 TOPS.

There's no way Nvidia was ever convinced by derp Nintendo to remove tensor cores. NVN 2, the switch API, was leaked with DLSS in the code. 2022 leak, DLSS 2.2 rev, which was on par with DLSS versions back then.

HFoRTgUz8JlMKQ5j.jpg
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

Member
They would have to invest too much R&D for Nvidia to strip away tensor cores that are so embedded into the last 4 generations of SMs that they're too poor to afford it.

Docked the rumored specs on Ampere SMs would give 48 tensor cores and give Switch 2 roughly 100~125 TOPs, which is more than the best of Turing which was 89 TOPS.

There's no way Nvidia was ever convinced by derp Nintendo to remove tensor cores. NVN 2, the switch API, was leaked with DLSS in the code. 2022 leak, DLSS 2.2 rev, which was on par with DLSS versions back then.

HFoRTgUz8JlMKQ5j.jpg
How much of the die will be dedicated to raster then, I confess I have no clue of the size or the tensor core block, and how much bandwidth is necessary to take advantage of them, Mark Cerny talked a lot about the challenge that is keep the PSSR feed with data LPDDR is already slower than GDDR as it is. Switch 2 will feature DLSS, I believe in that, but what I'm waiting to see is how good the implementation will be giving the parameters of a handheld console.
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
How much of the die will be dedicated to raster then, I confess I have no clue of the size or the tensor core block, and how much bandwidth is necessary to take advantage of them, Mark Cerny talked a lot about the challenge that is keep the PSSR feed with data LPDDR is already slower than GDDR as it is. Switch 2 will feature DLSS, I believe in that, but what I'm waiting to see is how good the implementation will be giving the parameters of a handheld console.

Best answer we have is if you pack all 128 Cuda cores + 4 tensor cores per SM, cuda cores account ~70% and tensor cores ~30%, but this is all guess work, nobody is accurate in that kind of detail at this scale. I saw floating earlier in the day someone trying to guess the size of tensor cores by the white paper diagrams and that for sure is not to scale

Best we have is Ada. Close to Ampere, same 128 cuda cores & 4 tensor cores count, even if tensor core had a gen difference probably not much changes at this scale and accuracy of the guess. We're nowhere near accuracy levels that gen to gen changes we can verify.



As he says, its all a guess

~22-30% numbers have been floating for a while, but that's compared to cuda cores. In the end, in the whole SM, it's much less. closer to 8-10%.

There's more in this article from the same source of the video


This cluster of Ada is exactly the number of cuda cores and tensor cores that Switch 2 is rumored to have, the T239. 12 SMs, 128 cuda cores + 1 RT core + 4 tensor cores per SM for a total of 1536 cuda cores, 48 tensor cores and 8 RT cores. 1 GSC of Ada takes 12 SMs though while Tegra has much less SM per GSC, making the chipset bigger than this diagram.

https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F268adfb4-6d91-40ec-8d44-55b3d8c0adb8_1920x1080.png


You then have to put ARM A78 in there, I/O, sound, video encode/decode, ISP, memory bus, etc etc. To make the APU. T239 also has a bit different setup than this Ada SoC.

Likely, but nobody knows yet... to be this kind of config, T234 seen here. 16 SM → 12 SM, 12 A78 → 8 A78.

E3krc_2VEAANy9O.jpg


One of the reason I don't believe it can be Samsung 8nm is that to fit exactly 12SM + 8 A78 cores, you basically are at 88% of the 200 mm^2 capacity just for the SM & core logic without anything else that makes up the APU. Fitting that in 12% of the remaining area is more than optimistic.

AND you do not have binning opportunity, so I would be highly surprised that Nintendo is going to Samsung fab and have the requirement of having perfect die without any binning for a >100M production chipset. Who the fuck is crazy enough to do that? One defect and the chip is ruined, straight to trash. That's money thrown out and slow down of production. That's money wasted. Nintendo does not like to waste money. The cost of extra SM & Cores is worth it for raising yields.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
DLSS isn't cheap.
This is a decent take from Alex from the weekly show. You might find it interesting.


He covers the Nintendo upscaling patent. This portion described swapping different quality DLSS-esque upscaling algorithms, as opposed to internal res, in real-time. I guess you might call that upscaling/upconverting 'precision'.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
Would that be like moving from, say, DLSS4, down to DLSS1, and then back up to DLSS3 etc.?

Sounds like a very strange way of doing things?
They also mention all the traditional DLSS quality presets in the list of potential resolutions. My guess for a case use, if it's even used, would be going from "docked" to "handheld" power limits. In this scenario, Switch 2 might not be able to use any form of DLSS 3/4, so it has a cheap FSR/XeSS-type fallback mode.
 
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Kataploom

Gold Member
This is a decent take from Alex from the weekly show. You might find it interesting.


He covers the Nintendo upscaling patent. This portion described swapping different quality DLSS-esque upscaling algorithms, as opposed to internal res, in real-time. I guess you might call that upscaling/upconverting 'precision'.

One thing that called my attention is when he said that there are no mentions of motion vectors in the document, which makes me thing that maybe that upscale solution is for non-DLSS games (Switch 1, for example).

Some people speculated that the C button might be a "Config" button, that could probably be used in-game for enabling or disabling features like upscaling or FG in games. I think Nintendo can do that in the menu that shows when holding Home button tho, it doesn't matter which button would be pressed, but it would be awesome if we something like that for BC games, that would mean we could have DLSS implementation for Switch 2 native games (or patched Switch 1 games) and something like AFMF or RSR (from AMD Radeon drivers) for games that don't support DLSS.

Just daydreaming a little...
 

CrustyBritches

Gold Member
One thing that called my attention is when he said that there are no mentions of motion vectors in the document, which makes me thing that maybe that upscale solution is for non-DLSS games (Switch 1, for example).
Alex mentions that they describe different “embodiments” of the patent that could leverage motion vectors for higher quality implementations.

It’s possible this is effectively Nintendo’s XeSS. Alex does mention something to the effect of, “this is describing DLSS” and is surprised they were granted a patent.

A side note was that this is being used shown via Cloud streaming as well.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
Ah ok, was going with Kataploom's description and haven't watched the video yet.
No worries. In the clip he says that Nintendo really emphasize that DLSS was compute and memory bandwidth intensive. It seems like that’s the reason behind having an implementation kind of like Intel did with XeSS, with both ML and non-ML. He also said that they mention tensor cores a bunch in the document.
 
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Buggy Loop

Gold Member
No worries. In the clip he says that Nintendo really emphasize that DLSS was compute and memory bandwidth intensive. It seems like that’s the reason behind having an implementation kind of like Intel did with XeSS, with both ML and non-ML. He also said that they mention tensor cores a bunch in the document.

Yea the patent is plastered with neural networks. I can't do a word count of it but it's everywhere.

Patent also explains that a cartridge can contain many neural models. There could be many different versions of upscalers maybe? Some could be more power efficient in handheld and some drain more the battery.

That models can be tailored to game specifics and resolution specific. This is good as it moves away from general models like you see on PC for example that are wide nets of possibilities for many genres of games. While this is optimized for best image quality on the resolution it is and game type it is or even trained specifically for that game. Handheld resolution upscale can have a model and docked resolution upscale another model. The patent also details all the falls backs of the architecture and the improvements of it. Such as staying locally in registers, no ping pong to slow DRAM to caches, creating the right number of blocks to not overload tensor cores, how they are divided and adjusted if the game has the frametime for it (higher quality or less frametime for upscaling (lower quality), ala auto DLSS almost. The use of faster memory like S-Cache on chip. etc.

Its very general, as patents typically are, but it captures that this has all been analyzed and that the SoC likely reflect the requirements that this is basically very optimized so that its near latency free and utilizes maximum of hardware on the fly.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
Yea the patent is plastered with neural networks. I can't do a word count of it but it's everywhere.

Patent also explains that a cartridge can contain many neural models. There could be many different versions of upscalers maybe? Some could be more power efficient in handheld and some drain more the battery.

That models can be tailored to game specifics and resolution specific. This is good as it moves away from general models like you see on PC for example that are wide nets of possibilities for many genres of games. While this is optimized for best image quality on the resolution it is and game type it is or even trained specifically for that game. Handheld resolution upscale can have a model and docked resolution upscale another model. The patent also details all the falls backs of the architecture and the improvements of it. Such as staying locally in registers, no ping pong to slow DRAM to caches, creating the right number of blocks to not overload tensor cores, how they are divided and adjusted if the game has the frametime for it (higher quality or less frametime for upscaling (lower quality), ala auto DLSS almost. The use of faster memory like S-Cache on chip. etc.

Its very general, as patents typically are, but it captures that this has all been analyzed and that the SoC likely reflect the requirements that this is basically very optimized so that its near latency free and utilizes maximum of hardware on the fly.
It would be cool if they could do a system level FSR type upscaling like steam deck or PS5 Pro PS4 enhancement option for backwards compatibility.
 

tkscz

Member
This is one of the most delusional threads posted on here recently. The switch 2 hardware is 8nm junk and we got people pointing to an upscaler as to why the garbage tech will suddenly look mind-blowing.

giphy.gif
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Seriously going through this thread is crazy with people getting angry about the idea that the Switch 2, a system running off Ampere, will have DLSS.

Not even coming to debate or talk, but to actually be angry about it to the point where they make things up.
 

Moochi

Member
If they put in enough training time to distill the model of each game, they could make everything run 4k 60 fps by using minimal inference frames, but at the moment I don't think Nintendo has the AI resources to implement something like that yet.
 

daclynk

Member
This is a decent take from Alex from the weekly show. You might find it interesting.


He covers the Nintendo upscaling patent. This portion described swapping different quality DLSS-esque upscaling algorithms, as opposed to internal res, in real-time. I guess you might call that upscaling/upconverting 'precision'.

This NEEDS in own thread. Some interesting information in the video
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Maybe they are upset that a handheld whom they love to put down on for being weak, might have upscaling technology that surpass their console’s that cost $700?
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's gonna need it for the lowest res games to upscale decently on TVs. It should open up devs to use the rest system resources for what they want without prioritizing resolution as much as performance and other bells and whistles. Also make more games support DLSS on PC too, more devs learn it.
 
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The transformer model is the standard forward it seems if it has dlss it will use it. Maybe it’s still a docked / undocked situation for usage but that could make sense. Timing of all this seems coincidental at least.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
If Nintendo adopt DLSS4 for Switch 2, it’ll be a win-win for both Nvidia and Nintendo.

Nintendo can leverage the technologies to improve the visual fidelity easily, while Nvidia can leverage Nintendo Switch 2 to promote DLSS4 and help get more developers to adopt and use DLSS4
 
It probably will have better upscaling tech in principle than the PS5 Pro but it will be less powerful. DLSS is not free and we could see many of games upscaling from 720p to 1440p etc. Switch 2 games will be upscaling from lower resolutions than the PRO and it won't look as good even if it's better at upscaling from a lower resolution.
 
If Nintendo adopt DLSS4 for Switch 2, it’ll be a win-win for both Nvidia and Nintendo.

Nintendo can leverage the technologies to improve the visual fidelity easily, while Nvidia can leverage Nintendo Switch 2 to promote DLSS4 and help get more developers to adopt and use DLSS4

Wait, what? If only Nvidia needed anyone to promote DLSS :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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