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[SkylineRKR]

Xbox fucked up by not reading the market. They had lightning in a bottle with 360, also made possible by Sony being stupid and out of touch at the time. But the 360, hardware issues aside, was a solid system with a lot to offer and it pushed online gaming on consoles forward.

They looked at Nintendo, and wanted to have a share as well. Sony and MS both started a battle for motion controls. But Sony didn't go all in with the Move. MS went all in with Kinect which was succesful at first (fueled by a huge campaign) but by 2011 or so the motion control hype was clearly fading. Wii's collected dust, consumers moved on. With all in i meant MS really spat on their core consumers, they focused about all their resources on Kinect. Before this they cut ties with the likes of Bungie and dumped some IP that gave Xbox face.

The fatal mistake they made, and one I don't understand, is that they kept pushing Kinect into the Xbox One as far as late 2013. No one wanted the thing anymore. From the Xbox announcement on it was obvious Sony had won this race before it started. Not only was the Xbox more expensive, it wasn't available in quite a bit of markets until a year later and it was significantly weaker than the PS4. Even today you see X1 ports losing to PS4 versions, its not a Saturn that had some boons; X1 is less powerful full stop.

Series is more competent hardware but they launched it without a next-gen game and this persisted for a long ass time. And when they release something exclusive its usually underwhelming. It seems Xbox' problems are rooted quite deep. They fail supervising, assisting, QA, launch windows... it seems their management just sucks.

 

[Barakov]

Xbox has by far the best games this generation but for some it still has no games.

They are the only ones who dare make new and interesting stuff as opposed to cookie cutter games.

 

[Crayon]

Eh everyone hanging off whether they stick with consoles or not. Sure it's salacious and everything but if you actually care about games it's not terribly consequential. Even if they left consoles (yay ponies dance your little jig), they are still currently seeing gaming in general as something they deserve to control. If ms spends enough money for enough time and eventually gets some competant leadership in there, we could all end up railroaded towards ms "the game company". Sony can't outfox them forever. And as we see now, sony is just a public scapegoat. ms has a distaste for competition in general, talking about getting nintendo and valve.

 

[nial]

Literally no way Xbox one was better than series x by any means of the imagination

I unironically think it's even worse, no 2016 "exclusive" for the Xbox One (third year into the console's lifecycle) was as terrible as Redfall. And they also had one good game that year at the very least, Forza Horizon 3.

 

[Humdinger]

you do realize that Matt Booty has been the head of Xbox Game Studios for just shy of 6 years right?

No, I didn't realize it had been 6 years already. I was thinking just a few.

I suppose 6 years is long enough to share in some of the blame. Most of Xbox's failures have roots before then, though.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

No, I didn't realize it had been 6 years already. I was thinking just a few.

I suppose 6 years is long enough to share in some of the blame. Most of Xbox's failures have roots before then, though.

I think matt booty was the wrong person for the job, but it was never going to be an easy job

Game development is really hard and Microsoft never really had the pedigree to begin with.

Jason Rubin and Andy Gavin started Naughty Dog. Them leaving allowed the rise of new presidents who also left. This room for growth inspires people to work hard and advance rather than to just leave. Naughty Dog also expanded and let new people work as creative directors, again giving people the inspiration to work hard.

Anthony Newman and Kurt Margenau could easily get jobs elsewhere, but why would they want to leave if they can run their own teams and are likely to be considered for president after Neil moves on. That being said the issues with the multiplayer game might cause Newman to be on the outs, but we just don't have details there.

Santa Monica does something similar. You groom people to take over. Doesn't always work out because you can't promote everyone. They've lost some key people as well like Shannon Studstill who unfortunately left for Stadia and now works for Luda. Stig also left. It's difficult to understand why Shannon would have left after the success of God of War, but my guess is she was up for the job as PlayStation Studios head and it went to Herman, so she was done.

My guess is Shannon wasn't promoted due to the failed Stig Asmussen game, but I've never really understood why Herman Hulst got the job out of all the studio heads across PlayStation Studios. It probably should have gone to Evan Wells, but maybe he didn't want it. I'm sure Herman got a lot of bonus points because of Decima...

 

[Knightime_X]

I unironically think it's even worse, no 2016 "exclusive" for the Xbox One (third year into the console's lifecycle) was as terrible as Redfall. And they also had one good game that year at the very least, Forza Horizon 3.

Consoles are basically a poor man's pc.
If exclusives are the only thing you're batting for, you're in the wrong field.

 

[nial]

Consoles are basically a poor man's pc.
If exclusives are the only thing you're batting for, you're in the wrong field.

Whatever you say, man.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Consoles are basically a poor man's pc.
If exclusives are the only thing you're batting for, you're in the wrong field.

I'm not poor and I have a console. What's my excuse?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Consoles are basically a poor man's pc.

You don't understand the market then.

 

[Warnen]

Switch has a kick stand, ps5 now has a kick stand, Xbox has no kick stand….

 

[Pimpbaa]

Consoles are basically a poor man's pc.
If exclusives are the only thing you're batting for, you're in the wrong field.

Or people who don’t want to deal with the hassle of building and maintaining a PC. I did that for over 3 decades, I got tired of it. I just want to sit down in my recliner and play a game while I suck on some werther’s originals.

 

[iHaunter]

I think Xbox has a brand issue.

The issue is they over-hype their games is rarely deliver on them. I don't think they have since the 360. 343 single handedly killed the Halo franchise.

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

When’s the last time you saw Xbox fans actually demand competence from the platform. No, it‘s always the blame game. Everyone except themselves.

Man, this is extremely real. I don't know an Xbox fan who's capable of saying that things aren't going well and that MS needs to improve this or that. For them, it's always an external agent that hinders success.
Sony sells more consoles? Sony already has a monopoly on the gaming market. Bad reviews? It's the fault of the Sony-biased media that prefers their consoles.
X years without releasing games? Hold on, they're coming. MS bought 666 studios; next year will be the best year for Xbox (it's been 10 years).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

A very sensible take from someone that was right there at the centre of it. In the end they took the power away from hobbists - you needed to be one to have this crazy idea - and molded the division into a regular Microsoft Business Unit.
I don't think Phil is bringing it back though, he is the epitome of patronage-driven career advancement that Fryer described in her video. So a little bit like this:

 

[Knightime_X]

Or people who don’t want to deal with the hassle of building and maintaining a PC. I did that for over 3 decades, I got tired of it. I just want to sit down in my recliner and play a game while I suck on some werther’s originals.

 

[Knightime_X]

You don't understand the market then.

You don't have to when you have the high ground.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

You don't have to when you have the high ground.

more like the midrange ground

 

[Knightime_X]

more like the midrange ground

Is it really though?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Is it really though?

yes

 

[Knightime_X]

yes

lol How? PC literally does everything console does, does it even better.
And so much more.
With like ps5 you're limited to whatever sony allows for a controller. No limits on pc. That's not even the beginning.

Compared to console, Super Saiyan is PC's base power.

 

[Crayon]

Man, this is extremely real. I don't know an Xbox fan who's capable of saying that things aren't going well and that MS needs to improve this or that. For them, it's always an external agent that hinders success.
Sony sells more consoles? Sony already has a monopoly on the gaming market. Bad reviews? It's the fault of the Sony-biased media that prefers their consoles.
X years without releasing games? Hold on, they're coming. MS bought 666 studios; next year will be the best year for Xbox (it's been 10 years).

Hey now, we got xbox fans around here who can call ms on bullshit. I agree it's notably prevelant in that community, but it's not everyone.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

lol How? PC literally does everything console does, does it even better.
And so much more.
With like ps5 you're limited to whatever sony allows for a controller. No limits on pc. That's not even the beginning.

ah...you are one of those

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

As a diehard Xbox fan, they made me switch to pc. If they don't give a crap about their hardware brand nor do they focus on great appealing games, why would I care. I can only take so much. None of what they released in the last couple of years has made a lasting impression on me.

 

[Knightime_X]

ah...you are one of those

I also own ALL modern consoles.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I also own ALL modern consoles.

it doesn't matter if you own the special edition OUYA too.

each market, Consoles, PC and Mobile have their own idiosyncrasies.

 

[Knightime_X]

it doesn't matter if you own the special edition OUYA too.

each market, Consoles, PC and Mobile have their own idiosyncrasies.

And that's fine.
But PC as a whole still trumps across the board.

 

[Rick Dangerous]

Microsoft as a corporation is cancer.
Calling them Evil Empire is not exagerating, Anybody having business relations with them knows that.
i expect massive talent leak : only will stay tier2 talent. You can't buy a creative industry with this corporate mind. Not anyone wants to work for the Empire. And that's a good thing for the world.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

And that's fine.
But PC as a whole still trumps across the board.

no one trumps across the board. in fact, PC is objectively the most annoying.

 

[Snake29]

Ooh well, today they might be able to compete together with ABK. They are so creative to have these established IP’s.

Just take away all the IP’s from PS with Bethesda and ABK will finally help them!



Nah, they will still destroy their own brand and i will laugh at them. They are just the worst.

When you ask the xbox fanboys game PS has taken away from them, then they always come up with FF. It’s Square that chose to have an agreement with Sony, and not Microsoft because the financial and development back Sony gave, is something MS didn’t want, especially development support. Square went to both for a deal.

Now look at MS, and how many IP they now own which where always multiplatform from the start. They even canceld PS5 games. Image Sony canceling Xbox versions of Bungie games, the world would burn. People are so focus on blaming Sony for MS their mistakes. People use it as excuse to say that Sony has “enough” exclusives. Well non of the exclusives are taken away or were multiplatform to begin with. And those timed exclusives will end on Xbox, so what did they took away?

If MS doesn’t like timed exclusives, then they first need to stop doing it themselves. For example, why do they have a 2 year exclusivity on ARK 2?

 

[Knightime_X]

no one trumps across the board. in fact, PC is objectively the most annoying.

Not sure how. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Already did that. Still a hassle, especially when shit goes wrong (and it often did). I don’t even use a PC for non gaming tasks. Do everything on my iPad Pro with a keyboard/case (cause it’s less of a hassle). Got sick of windows updating a dozen different things whenever I turned on my laptop.

 

[Panajev2001a]

A very sensible take from someone that was right there at the centre of it. In the end they took the power away from hobbists - you needed to be one to have this crazy idea - and molded the division into a regular Microsoft Business Unit.
I don't think Phil is bringing it back though, he is the epitome of patronage-driven career advancement that Fryer described in her video. So a little bit like this:

Phil understand the culture shifted for the worse and may honestly want to correct it, but it does feel like another flavor of a similar song… so yeah…

 

[DenchDeckard]

She makes some great points. They should hire her back to help Phil.

The obvious facts are the team who took over, when entering the xbox one generation completely screwed the pooch. There were a handful of decision makers that were not thinking like any normal person should.

She implies, that Phil is trying to fix all those issues and it's obviously taken years upon years to start righting the ship.

I think Phil will step down soon and I hope they get some people in with the right mindset to improve the brand. We will have to see.

 

[March Climber]

When it comes to talking about modern day Xbox, some of you will eventually have to stop pointing back at a system that is about to be 20 years old soon. Otherwise it’s going to appear just as sad as those Sega fans who are still waiting on a Dreamcast successor.

Everyone here is aware of the glory days, but 20 years is a long time. That’s an entirely new generation of adults who won’t see the Xbox 360 in a nostalgic way like you do, let alone even know about it in the first place. Their only experiences are that of Xbox One and Xbox Series X. That’s it. Think about that for a minute.

 

[Knightime_X]

Already did that. Still a hassle, especially when shit goes wrong (and it often did). I don’t even use a PC for non gaming tasks. Do everything on my iPad Pro with a keyboard/case (cause it’s less of a hassle). Got sick of windows updating a dozen different things whenever I turned on my laptop.

You do know you can turn that off, right?
You can customize updates, even optional ones to your liking.
At least with windows 11 it's a nonissue.

 

[rofif]

TIL, quintupling the size of your in house development studios is...(clears throat)..."nothing".

Wow. He spent 100billion dollars. Maybe if previous guys had it, they would save Xbox one too

 

[Melchiah]

No and no.

More money does not "always = better game", but generally speaking it does. There isn't a game developer alive who doesn't want more time + funding to create a better game.

The budget tells me it was low because Phil Spencer had to convince Satya that they needed way more money to succeed in the games business. Don Matrick took a gamble with the XBox One because he knew they couldn't trade blows with PlayStation back in 2012. PlayStation dwarfed them in size back then. When you're the little guy, you have to take bigger risks to compete.

And how much did they spend on the RROD fiasco just to beat Sony at launch? Any other player would have had to exit the race at that point.

 

[Harlock]

But this channel don´t have even 4k subs. Why make a topic about?

 

[SHA]

Kaz Hirai did actually marketed the logo on a plastic box objectively, he's definitely a hardware guy first, a very distanced second on software, he actually started this stuff.

 

[GHG]

But this channel don´t have even 4k subs. Why make a topic about?

Christ alive what kind of times do we live in?

Who the person is and the quality of the information/content they produce matters a lot more than their subscriber count.

 

[Varteras]

Christ alive what kind of times do we live in?

Who the person is and the quality of the information/content they produce matters a lot more than their subscriber count.

Come on dude, she doesn't even have an OnlyFans. I came here to spend money on butthole pics. Not listen to her talk.

 

[Godot25]

I just don't understand praise for Moore.
Yeah, his vision of Xbox (targeted at hardcore gamer unlike Mattrick's vision) was way better then Matrick's but let's not forget that Moore completely ignored building his own first-party studios and relied heavily on third-party exclusives and timed exclusives. Which is one of the main reason why they then lost Xbox One gen - once partnerships ended and Sony stopped shooting themselves in the foot they had nothing.
He also alienated Bungie because he wanted Halo in every gaming genre so much, that Bungie requested buyout from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that Microsoft worked with BioWare in their peak. They had Epic Games making exclusive games for them. They have BioShock as pretty long timed exclusive. They worked with Remedy. If they just bought three out of four, while keeping Bungie we would not be talking about "Xbox has no games."

Also. He was directly responsible for RROD because he rushed X360 into the market.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

She makes some great points. They should hire her back to help Phil.

The obvious facts are the team who took over, when entering the xbox one generation completely screwed the pooch. There were a handful of decision makers that were not thinking like any normal person should.

She implies, that Phil is trying to fix all those issues and it's obviously taken years upon years to start righting the ship.

I think Phil will step down soon and I hope they get some people in with the right mindset to improve the brand. We will have to see.

• She's been out of the industry for a decade
• Again, I think you ultimately are ignoring the reasons why Microsoft was in the industry to begin with. A normal person, trying to capitalize on tv and multimedia revenue absolutely would make the decisions Microsoft did.
  • If you look at YoutubeTV which is just a fraction of what Microsoft thought they could accomplish if they had been successful, that generates billions in revenue per quarter... YTTV has like 6 million subscribers. Xbox could have done 30-40 million pretty easily.
  • Sony also largely failed at this, it just wasn't the cornerstone of the PS3.
• She implies that Phil is trying to fix these issues, but she has no real connection to Microsoft, she hasn't worked there for like 15 years
• Look at the people who work under Phil, there isn't any righting the ship at this point
  • Their model is destructive to the Xbox brand
    • PC Day 1 for every title tells people they absolutely do not have to buy an Xbox to play any title at any time
      • Starfield was a major release, and when/if we get a proper breakdown we'll see most people will have played it on PC (where Microsoft pays royalties for their purchase) rather than console (where Microsoft gets royalties for other purchases)
    • GamePass goes further and says you don't even need to buy their titles, you can get GamePass for a limited time instead
      • Starfield was a major release, and when/if we get a proper breakdown we'll see that most people played this on GamePass rather than buying it outright
      • You can buy 3 months of GamePass Ultimate for 40 dollars vs buying Starfield outright for 70
        • That's value-destructive
  • It's likely too late for Microsoft to start looking at a Pro console at this stage if they truly haven't started. This is going to concede a large market to Sony, but worse they're going to concede core gamers, which in turn influence the rest of the market

Microsoft's model is destroying their brand and so anyone who replaces Phil needs to first decide whether to double down on PC Day 1/GamePass and whether to launch a console early or on time.

2026 or 2027 is probably early and 2028 is probably on time. Let's note that 2028 is presumably 4 years of a PS5 Pro with no competition and PS5 Pro and PC vastly eclipsing XSX. Launching in 2026 would be 2 years after the PS5 Pro and because it is early, you're still going to get cross gen focus. Unreal 6 probably won't have launched yet. So the question is does the next xbox in 2026 come out price-wise against the PS5 Pro?

It's not a great position to be in, but you've got to be as early as possible and as affordable as possible.

What's worse is that despite the promises of xCloud, it seems as though Sony has beaten Microsoft to 4K streaming AND put out a piece of hardware that might be cloud-compatible at some point. Sony will probably beat Microsoft to a cloud-streaming dongle at this point. Obviously, we still have to see how Sony does with latency.

 

[cybertailor]

It's pretty obvious that Xbox as a whole just suffers from grass mismanagement, they burn all this money and haven't really managed to facilite the formation of an enviorment at a studio for them to produce AAA titles like Insomniac and Naughty do. The only reason has to be mismanagment.

 

[Varteras]

It's pretty obvious that Xbox as a whole just suffers from grass mismanagement,

 

[SHA]

I can think of a few they have flip flopped over the years.

You can actually see Sony’s roots in hardware and media here. The culture started from there.

They were the easiest console to develop for. Great third party relation. Brought the mature audience to gaming. Cheapest media and largest to store games with the CD. Actually mandated the 3D revolution. Then they started to offer more media options such as the ability to play VCD and music on it via add ons.

They mostly brought it to the PS2 via DVD then went complete bonkers in the PS3 trying to stuff every feature under the sun. They still put media in the forefront by massively subsidizing Bluray as it was actually cheaper than any stand alone bluray player in the market. They fucked their 3rd party relations mostly because of their absurdly complicated console.

PS4 and PS5 is basically the same continuing the previous trend of the PS1 being easy to develop with state of the art cheap media discs. From single layer to double layer to triple layer BDs. Obviously this was before Activision buyout but you can see how their relations with 3rd party was great with along with other promotions and continuing Japanese support despite lower sales in the PS4 era. PS5 is actually surprisingly bouncing back.

Throughout the gens, they have also continued to mess with other ways of playing like Dance pad, Eyetoy, Move, VR1, VR2.

Now the culture of their games was largely coming of the back of their great 3rd party support until the PS3 when they actually had to make one themselves. I think it’s pretty self explanatory how they now demand excellence from the top of the corporation down to the fans. Execs literally grill them to make game that will review really well as a requirement.

Contrast that to MS where they thought Redfall was okay to release and the biggest disappointment in it is that Phil said the score was lower by a dozen points when tested by internal play testers. The game has a 50 metacritic score. Wtf?

True, Sonys weakness is they have the audience but the consoles demographic has changed after the ps2, these aren't the same people before and after the launch of ps3, except for neche hobbyists and fans and they were over-represented.

 

[crackajack]

Makes sense, that it comes down to some key figures being replaced and them just being not the right people, than a rippleeffect from top to bottom which is still not repaired. Especially since adding already a big publisher, that possibly grinds some gears with another culture and soon another even bigger one, while also adding smaller studios as well. That is hardly easy and I can imagine also that big daddy will pay for anything mentality is dangerous for any improvement too.
They definitely needed games, but too much too fast, seemingly did not work, yet, and with adding ABK and Halo, Redfall, Starfield, Forza getting flack to various degrees it seems not be cleared anytime soon. Their best games seem to have been made externally, Psychonauts 2, Flight Sim, but only the latter is exclusive, so true MS games still barely exist beyond the old 360 Gears, Halo, Forza Trinity, with Halo and Gears being falling stars for some time already and with current Forza now for the first time also in some trouble, it does not look great and showing any upwards trend.
I don't really like and believe Phil, he may or may not be a good person, and it may just be the other manager minions below him not doing what is best for MS's success, but after 10 years he did not really improve MS much and trusting him with billions in those last years seems like a risky very expensive band aid solution if something else needs to be fixed first before going on that buying spree.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

You do know you can turn that off, right?
You can customize updates, even optional ones to your liking.
At least with windows 11 it's a nonissue.

Look, some of us have been dealing with Windows for decades and don't want anything to do with it outside of being forced at work to use it. Nothing wrong with pc gaming if you want to do it as you will get the best graphics and fps but I'm not willing or want a PC that I have to manage drivers, the system or optimizing games and things just not working.

Don't say it's just better because to me it has more downsides than upsides. But if you like it fine, go bust a nut.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It's pretty obvious that Xbox as a whole just suffers from grass mismanagement, they burn all this money and haven't really managed to facilite the formation of an enviorment at a studio for them to produce AAA titles like Insomniac and Naughty do. The only reason has to be mismanagment.

I mean it isn't JUST mismanagement. I feel like that is an easy catch-all.

It's a combination of things that maybe you could ultimately call mismanagement, but an overreliance on contractors, but also difficulty in recruiting.

Two game companies offer you a job. Both pay 100K per year, same benefits. Do you want to work for the company that last did God of War Ragnarok or Redfall?

That's a bit apples to oranges though.

Let's look at California which is probably the premier hub for game development in the country.

Microsoft has the following studios in California:
The Initiative, founded in 2018
Double Fine Productions, SF rather than southern California, not really AAA
Inxile, not AAA
Obsidian, not AAA

So, they have 1 AAA studio that was stood up right before the pandemic started. They've got like 50 employees working on a Perfect Dark reboot.

Now let's look at PlayStation Studios in California

Insomniac
Naughty Dog
San Diego Studios
Santa Monica Studio
That's 3 major AAA studios that are extremely established.

Part of the problem is Microsoft HQs in Washington rather than California and most of their studios are also in Washington.

So let's compare Microsoft's home turf and Sony's presence in Washington

Microsoft
343 Industries
Turn10
Undead Labs
World's Edge

Sony
Sucker Punch
Bungie
Firewalk
Valkyrie Entertainment

I'd probably take Sony's studios over Microsoft's here. Bungie is obviously massive and Sucker Punch probably delivers more than any of these studios as well given how well Ghost did. Valkyrie is a support studio, support studios are becoming more and more important and strategic to successful outcomes. Microsoft hasn't invested at all in support studios like Sony has. Why is that probably? Because that's probably feedback Sony has gotten from their studios at a point of maturity that Microsoft hasn't reached.

I think it's easy to say it is mismanagement, but Microsoft is working at a pretty premium deficit when it comes to locale. A lot of it comes down to Sony just having a headstart and ironically Microsoft's early success with Bungie probably narrowed their field of vision. They had so much 1st party success in that one studio (that now ironically is owned by Sony).

Buying Zenimax and ABK really helps infuse a lot of established studios, but not really sure what it gives you long term or specific to consoles.